Dog Community

Drives vs. Rewards; Working IN Drive vs. Training...

Posted : 11/27/2009 9:34:36 PM

I'm starting a new thread since the other one kinda got off topic and I like this topic. It's not every last post but hopefully enough to keep the discussion going...

poodleOwned
I think the principal of using and channeling drive rather than suppresion is pretty scarey for many people.
My youngest dog is very very drivey. If i scaled it up many working dog people would lick their lips .))))
I have been doing some research lately. Again i don't want to fan hornets nest, but i think that using just food rewards for many dogs is slightly drive depressive, and encourages a work style that isn't for me. I use food heavily in the early stages but switch to play and prey rewards pretty quickly.
It appears that some play styles do encourage a different working style. It is not that suprising as two different areas of the brain are used.

Liesje
poodleOwned, I am like you. I used food to introduce a new behavior and then bring in the ball later on. If I bring in the ball off the bat, the dog is out of control, out of his head with drive and takes longer to learn the new behavior. However there are a few behaviors I train with a ball from the get-go. For example, when teaching the dog the formal front recall (front sit with his paws on my toes and his chin on my abdoment), I used food because in this case position/precision is important later on. Once he "got it", I switched to the ball for speed and intensity. Same with the right and left finishes. Used food to lure the behavior and reward the position, now am using a ball because he understands it with one verbal command or hand signal and we want speed and flash. I also use the dog's contextual thinking to my advantage - food training is done indoors. There are certain outdoor fields were we always use a ball. He sees the field and is already in drive because he knows the ball is coming out. We go indoors and he is more calm and we can clicker train for fun, let him throw new behaviors without obsessing over the ball. An example of using the ball from the get-go would be his retrieve. I'm actually training it in two parts - the going out and retrieving, and the holding the object and outing. The latter part, since it again requires more precision and finesse from the dog - will be clicker trained with food. The first part we've begun using a ball in order for him to understand that his formal retrieve must *always* be FAST. Also I broke it into two parts so I can reward with play without him getting obsessed over a dumbell. So, right now we have it from heeling to the jump, sitting and waiting as I throw the ball, a fast intense retrieve of the ball and back over the jump, and he comes fast straight into me because he loves tug and the reward is that I grab the string and we tug. As soon as I get a good dumbell we will train that piece using food and backchaining a bit.

AgileGSD
I strongly prefer dogs who have a strong retrieve and tug drive, especially tug drive. With dogs who enjoy retrieve and tug I use a combination of treats and toys depending on what I am teaching. Often in a session I will switch back and forth to keep the dog guessing. For things which require speed and attitude though, you can't beat the use of toys with drivey dogs. Whimsy LOVES tugging and in agility class I use almost nothing but the tug toy (except to reward contacts).

IME it is so much easier to work with drivey dogs, even for basic pet training stuff. The hardest dogs I have ever had in class were dogs who really didn't care about food and had no interested at all in toys or playing. One such dog was an extremely laid back, no drive GSD, who was pretty well behaved naturally but extremely hard to teach any behaviors to. He actually slept through most of the training classes. The worst was a Sibe/Sammy mix, who wasn't even interested in prime rib (all the other dogs in the class were drooling though!) and never, ever played with toys.

Kim_MacMillan
There are certain things I will always use a food reward for, or should I say food as a reward choice, simply because I know that food is a high reinforcer for my guys all the time. The problem in working with terriers, is their "choice" of reward changes with the second. And I'm totally serious when I say that. I can take a tug toy and use it as a reward, but it's honestly hit or miss if Gaci will find it reinforcing. In the right situation, she loves to tug and will tug for all the world. But in other situations, she looks at the tug toy and if she was a person you'd see her shrug her shoulders and roll her eyes at you....I'm sure you'd hear a "Pffft whatever" as she wandered off.

But, like others, I try to move off of food as soon as is possible and move on to other things, and it totally depends on what we are working on. A dog like Shimmer actually finds attention and affection supremely reinforcing. She thrives on what you think of her, and in that respect rewarding her is so easy! Games of fun chase, letting her jump into my arms, just running around like crazy, even just getting down low and letting her lick my face, are rewards for her.

Gaci, on the other hand, is not touchy-feely, and she would prefer to chase other dogs (not always matches what I want!) or chasing things in general, go sniff for vermin, run offleash, eat food, or get the opportunity to do a favorite game like contact training or jumping. Most of Gaci's rewards are pretty unconventional, as she doesn't generally care for toys or tugs or affection when training. She does always care for food, but I try to find other ways for her to get reinforced (like a release from a great agility run to the beach!!) so that we have other choices. She's a hard dog to reinforce without food, though, because a lot of the reinforcers she loves can't be given easily or all the time. And it's not for lack of working on things....in the right situation she loves to tug, she will retrieve objects but only because I taught her to (there is still no real intrinsic reinforcement for her), she isn't really a toy dog....she's really a serious, on-the-job hunter who knows the difference between "fake prey" and real prey....and she has no time for the fake stuff.

Makes training a challenge by times, but it also makes it more invigorating!! And you really have to learn how to channel and ride the waves of drive to get where you want, because if you don't you either get a mess of a performance or the proverbial middle finger from your dog.

huski
Food is still a drive though and in some dogs it's a very strong drive, much stronger than their prey or play drive.
IMO there's a difference between food exchange (simply giving a dog a treat in exchange for a behaviour) and utilising a dog's food drive.
I have an insanely food driven dog here, I can get just as much drive out of her with food than people can get with their prey driven dogs. I don't feel like I'm restricting myself in our training in any way by only using her food drive (although I do utilise play/pack drive too).
I would be stupid to use prey drive with her when it's not where near as strong as her food drive. She's a beagle with a VERY strong drive to scent but when I have her working in food drive she can go from having her nose glued to the ground to 110% focus on me anywhere, any time, in very high levels of distraction.
At the end of the day she's still working in drive and getting drive satisfaction just like she would if I was working her in prey drive, and whilst I would prefer to have a prey driven dog if I could choose to (at least they don't get full! haha) IMO you should use what works best with the dog you have.

Liesje
huski
IMO there's a difference between food exchange (simply giving a dog a treat in exchange for a behaviour) and utilising a dog's food drive.

I think this is a very important point. I think people too often call something "drive" simply because a dog accepts it as a reward. To me, the dog has "drive" when it would run through plate glass for that reward. If the dog only accept it in *some* situations/environments, it can still be a reward, but I wouldn't call that "drive". At my club we call Coke the "driveless dog". Now, he is quite trainable, he will work for food and praise and sometimes play, but he doesn't actually have food or play or toy drive such that he would work through pressure and conflict for that reward. Training a dog a new behavior is one thing; actually asking that dog to work in drive is something different. That is why I said before that I usually train new behaviors with food, and then "put it in drive" later on with the ball. My dog will work so hard for his ball, he's already injured himself twice going after it. I have to be careful, even just playing fetch.
It is possible to have a dog that has very little to no drive and is a perfectly fine dog that is quite lively and trainable. I have two such dogs, and one has a dozen titles on her name.
I call something "drive" when you can put really pressure on the dog, present the dog with a conflict, and his desire to get that reward pushes him through and makes him a better dog for it, rather than avoidance or shutting down. Same thing with prey drive, fight drive, defense drive, etc. Another way I define it is that the dog is the one pushing you, the dog is the one begging you to get up and work him. You're trying to keep up with your dog, not expending all your energy trying to motivate your dog.
I don't see anything wrong with food drive. I'm like AgileGSD, I prefer using toys for fetch and tug, but only because that is more practical for what I am training (retrieves, protection, etc). Food drive is great for tracking though, but luckily my dog tracks for the ball at the end.

huski
spiritdogs
That's a good way of looking at it - and I have a hound, too, that I use food with. He will tug, but not in the vicinity of a sausage lol. However, because I understand, and can still apply, the same principles of operant conditioning using ANY reinforcement, working with any drive, the dog learns what I would like him to learn.

I can reward her with a tug, she has a reasonable prey drive and will tug quite happily. But her prey drive is still no where near as strong as her food drive. If given the choice between food and a tug, she'd walk over the tug like it wasn't even there.
I train for competition obedience so I like to have a dog who I can switch on when I give the command word and have her working reliably in drive in any situation under any level of distraction. I only use her food drive for obedience training. Sure I can use a range of things to reinforce behaviour I would like to see and that might be fine for day to day stuff, but when I really want her to switch on and have 110% focus and tonnes of drive I will always utilise her strongest drive - food.
When I was building her food drive I would get her to chase the food much like you get a prey driven dog to chase a tug, you are still using the same principles of drive training and the dog is still getting that rush of adrenaline and release of endorphins in food drive that they would get if you were training a very prey driven dog.

Kim_MacMillan
See, that's where the fun comes in....Gaci is dripping in prey drive. The problem is, she knows the difference between real prey and fake prey....so she doesn't utilize any sort of prey drive for things like tug. You can see it come out in some of her chase games, but it's still nothing compared to real prey. It's really hard when you have a dog that only works "in drive" for actual running, squeaking prey......and it would be a bit of an ethical dilemma if I brought a caged rat to, say, an agility training session.

Most of what Gaci is really, truly driven for, I can't use as a reward in real time. It is either ethically wrong, too risky, or too time consuming (I can't let her run to the beach every time I want to reward her in agility.....we'd never get anything done). I liken Gaci to a risk-seeker.....her innate interests are generally things that she shouldn't be doing. It really limits your choices of what you can and can't do. Now, in saying that, we've done quite a lot together, and we've come a long way and taught a lot of things that she truly enjoys doing. But I'll be 100% completely honest when I say most of it is in utilizing her desire for food, and using food. And as a realist, she's turning 6 next March and she'll likely always have to be taught that way. But, that's okay with me, and I've accepted that she's just not that into toys or tugs. She's a foody (and sometimes moody) dog, but that's why I love her and that's why I love working with her, because she is a foody, moody, driven-to-what-she-wants Schnauzer.

Liesje
I like the phrase "working IN drive" because it distinguishes just training. Working in drive is not exactly a balanced state of mind for the dog. Like how you were saying you only bring out the food when you want/need that 110%, likewise I would not expect my dog to do Schutzhund heeling for an entire walk around the neighborhood. 99% of the time, my dog is just a crazy, hyper, pushy puppy. 1% of the time, he is working IN drive. This is not always appropriate even when training. When we did our CGC class, and now when we do our Rally class in January, I will not be working him in drive. It's just not appropriate or necessary in those contexts. I can get focus and compliance with food, without drive.

Liesje
Kim_MacMillan
See, that's where the fun comes in....Gaci is dripping in prey drive. The problem is, she knows the difference between real prey and fake prey....so she doesn't utilize any sort of prey drive for things like tug. You can see it come out in some of her chase games, but it's still nothing compared to real prey. It's really hard when you have a dog that only works "in drive" for actual running, squeaking prey......and it would be a bit of an ethical dilemma if I brought a caged rat to, say, an agility training session.

It might be something that needs to be developed. Even for the crazy, drivey GSDs they don't always come out of the box this way. Huski was talking about building the food drive so I assume he/she has done the same. Nikon ignored balls for the first 5 months of his life. The ball drive is something that *I* created so that I had an absolute motivator/reward ALL of the time (it's also my "emergency recall). I needed a very experienced trainer to help me develop this drive and bring it out in the dog. If you never have to work really hard to shape and channel the dog's drives, then you are an extremely lucky person. To date I have spent considerably more time just developing ball drive than actually training and working my dog. We did a ton of back-tying and agitation work to channel all of Nikon's prey drive and frustration into the ball. As a youngster he was somewhat interested in a lot of things; we took all of that "somewhat" from those many things and crammed it all onto the ball, and now have a dog who's love for the ball has landed him at the vet's!

Kim_MacMillan
Here's a video that I got in 2007, where Gaci actually at one time did work "in drive" for the tug:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4FrPwUb810

She is utterly, totally, glued to my side, and she was actually practically shaking in anticipation. She is so focused that she finds it difficult to do her impulse-control behaviours, and she fires out of a down like a rocket. When she's waiting in a down, her whole being is screaming "GOOOOOOO". Every movement is intense, and she doesn't even look away from me when she "outs".

But....I don't get this level of focus and drive all the time. It's unpredictable, and 100% depending on her own desires. Which, I suppose, is understandable, but sometimes I wish she had that level of interest in toys all the time!!!

huski
I spent months developing my dog's drive and I too did so under the guidance of a very experienced trainer. Despite always wanting to take food, I couldn't always get drive or the level of drive I was happy with - it takes time to develop and build it. Some of my training sessions would be 30-60 seconds long MAX.
The hard thing with some dogs especially if you start with an adult is often they have learnt to get drive satisfaction from other things like moving prey items. They've learned that chasing a live prey item is the most rewarding thing ever and it takes time to turn it around and teach them that the prey item in your hand is far more exciting and rewarding. I had a similar problem with my beagle as we didn't start TID until she was two years old and by that point she'd had two years learning that scenting was the most rewarding thing ever and the best way to get drive satisfaction was to put her nose to the ground.
The hardest thing is getting that focus and drive, it's what I've spent the most part of 2009 doing ;) Now I have a dog who I can switch on really easily and get that 110% focus in high levels of distraction - we have a bit of fine tuning to do before we hit the trial ring but we've done the hardest part.
Liesje, re working your dog in drive - I agree there are situations where you wouldn't do it, which is why lots of people who TID use two different sets of commands (not sure if you do the same) - one for normal every day obedience and one for TID.

huski
Kim_MacMillan
Here's a video that I got in 2007, where Gaci actually at one time did work "in drive" for the tug:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4FrPwUb810

She's so cute!
I'm not sure how you usually use tugs, but personally with prey driven dogs I make it more about the chase than the capture - does she enjoy chasing the tug?

Kim_MacMillan
Liesje
It might be something that needs to be developed. Even for the crazy, drivey GSDs they don't always come out of the box this way. Huski was talking about building the food drive so I assume he/she has done the same. Nikon ignored balls for the first 5 months of his life. The ball drive is something that *I* created so that I had an absolute motivator/reward ALL of the time (it's also my "emergency recall).

This is a good point. If I had the same desires and goals when Gaci was a puppy, as I do now, I would have raised her in a totally different way. Obviously part of her drives come from her history in what I used as a puppy, plus her natural interests. There are a lot of things I'd do differently if I was raising a drivey, active animal from the beginning now as compared to five and a half years ago. I also had the pitfalls of having to sidetrack some of the "fun" stuff to work on her serious behaviour issues - that in itself could be a part of what altered some things as well. If I were to choose my next "ideal" dog - it would have a lot of elements that she has, but I wouldn't select the exact dog again. And i say that with utmost love and respect for Gaci......she's my heart dog (and I've lived with a lot of dogs), and I'm so partial to her, but I wouldn't "choose" her if she came out of another litter in the future.

It's not as easy to build that kind of focus with "terrier" terriers....I say that in quotations because you can get terriers with limited drive as well. I have one...LOL. Just because it's a terrier doesn't mean it's drivey in the least. But when you do get a drivey terrier, it's a bit different than a drivey Border Collie or a drivey GSD - because the focus and motivations are often at the opposite ends of the spectrum. Once again it comes down to heritage and what the underlying motivations are. There's a reason certain breeds do what they do - they are bred for certain tasks. It's why you don't see too many Mini Schnauzers in herding (I've seen one...and it utilized prey drive and herded really strange compared to herding dogs) or German Shepherds doing bird-hunting work.

I'm not using that as any sort of excuse though....when I'm doing agility and our agility training group is working together, I do expect to see the same results as the Kelpie or the Border Collie....I have high expectations of my girls.....but you have to acknowledge the differences and work with them in slightly different manners sometimes, and sometimes that same level of experience takes slightly longer than it may with a more handler-driven breed.

Regardless....I would have done things differently if I had have raised Gaci to be a sports dog...I didn't have those goals, or interests, when she was a pup, so her puppyhood was a lot different than I would do now. And I do believe how a pup is raised is a big factor of how it will turn out for sports and competition as an adult.

huski
Not unlike a drivey Beagle ;) My beag goes into drive really easily when it involves scenting, we step out of the house and she's got her nose to the ground scenting madly and 110% focused on the smell she's following.
But if you can harness that drive you can use it to your advantage. My dog always had that level of drive and therefore had tonnes of potential, it was just a case of working out how to harness it and use it.
I agree it can be easier the younger you start, but that's not to say it can't be done well with an adult dog. I never thought in a million years that I would compete with my beagle in obedience when I got her as a pup, but she's just turned three years old and we are looking at trialling in Feb/March next year. I won't be entering her until I know she's capable of high scores - rocking up to obedience with a beagle people congratulate you on just turning up so I want to show everyone just what they are capable of :D

Kim_MacMillan
I would say that I've harnessed her drive....just not to the extent that I wish I could. Believe me, I spend every waking day working with these guys, it's not for lack of trying, I do believe I've gotten to the peak of what I'll probably be able to get out of Gaci at this point.

I've harnessed and channelled her drive such that I can take her (and two other Schnauzers) on off-leash hikes safely with a group of seven dogs in fields upon fields.....we compete in agility (although she just started officially, and won't trial again until May, she's been training off-leash in an outdoor trial site for a year now)....she is now able to stop sniffing/chasing/wandering/eyeing up other dogs and focus solely on me when I ask it of her. Once upon a time these things would not happen....let offleash she'd be gone in 1.8 seconds hunting and into a fox or rabbit den somewhere. I don't mean for it to come across that we haven't made any progress, she's an awesome dog and we have a great working relationship, and I'm proud of her and myself.

I wish I could refine it further, but I do believe that at this time we've reached the extent to which I can refine it any more. That's not to say I don't continue trying, I'll always keep working, but I have a feeling that that is the case. If I'm to be proven wrong, it's only a good thing!

Shimmer, on the other hand, is a whole different bag o worms. I'm still learning how to channel her into what will make a great working team for agility, but we're on a good path. Her desires and drives are quite different altogether, but she has the downfall of facing a lot of conflict she has trouble overcoming. She is very driven, but often doesn't have the courage to follow through when certain pressures are put upon her. So we have to work things at an even different angle than we do for Gaci.

Liesje

Posted : 11/27/2009 10:02:39 PM

Here is my video contribution: http://www.vimeo.com/7859527 (if it doesn't work, just wait, it takes a while to convert)

I would say in this case, the dog was around 85% and I was around 60%, lol. Usually I do a LOT more prey build up, then pop into some heeling or other obedience, then release the dog and pop back into prey or tug...but it's kind of dangerous in the house, as he slides on the carpet and crashes into stuff going after the ball. Maybe if it's nice tomorrow I can make another vid of what a "normal" session would look like. This vid just shows his obsession for the ball as a prey object. A lot of what I'm doing is actually quite confrontational and was not done until this was really developed, so please don't go out and try it, lol (pulling him up to my face, covering his eyes, flanking him). Now we are working on bringing out more fight and more power, so I alternate between being confrontational and letting him "win" (when you see my big butt at the camera because he is tugging around my hip, that is done purposely as to be non-confrontational).

On my Vimeo page you can see the other recent video where I'm clicker training some jumping: http://www.vimeo.com/7717179 Here's an example of using food to teach a new behavior. I don't want any drive in that context, I just want the dog to be calm and focus on learning the jump with his head down, so the food is simply a reward and not something to bring drive. And, my old video shows him getting his food treats for learning basic commands: http://www.vimeo.com/2085863

As far as drives go, you can contrast that video with this one (watched him at 2:07): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tle-wC0aRtY

In this video, he is showing a lot of defense and fight drive. He does not always view the sleeve as a prey object, he often needs a real threat to turn on. The video is edited but you can sort of see how when he wins it, if I don't move him into a victory lap he instantly spits the sleeve and goes back for the helper. According to the helper, he was maintaining a full grip during the drives (the drive is when the helper moves the dog and waves the stick) and even fighting back, wanting the helper to keep going rather than just slip the sleeve and let him win. This is fight drive being developed.

Liesje

Posted : 11/27/2009 10:42:17 PM

And, last but not least, here is the "driveless dog" himself, learning some beginner rally skills for food: http://www.vimeo.com/1917626

poodleOwned

Posted : 11/28/2009 12:58:22 AM

"I have been doing some research lately. Again i don't want to fan hornets nest, but i think that using just food rewards for many dogs is slightly drive depressive, and encourages a work style that isn't for me. I use food heavily in the early stages but switch to play and prey rewards pretty quickly."

I thought i would try to share some of what l learnt with this forum. One of the problems that we have is with the concept of drives and rewards. Drives tyoically trigger FAPs in animals and are highly useful, but at a brain level they appear to work a bit different than we have generally assumed.

Adrenalin, other than in fight or flight is not our friend at all!! We need to be more accurate. There are many Neuro Peptides that happen in various brain circuits. Prey Drive (it may be should ne called Predatory Aggression) is highly rewarding and quite different to play drive. The Neuro Peptides for Predatory Aggression actually encourage dopamine production etc but don't include adrenalin in any real quantity.

I have written a higher level summary that i am prepared to post here with some editing ( it is a little long) if a moderator and the OP will accept it.

I think personally that using prey and play rewards is the new dog training frontier, and besides that it is enormous fun.

I

huski

Posted : 11/28/2009 1:03:45 AM

poodleOwned
I think personally that using prey and play rewards is the new dog training frontier, and besides that it is enormous fun.

PO what would you do with a dog who had a much stronger food drive then they did a prey/play drive? My dog has enormous fun training in food drive, much more so than she would prey drive as her prey drive is just not that strong. I believe in using the dog's strongest drive be that prey, pack or food drive.

Personally I don't see anything terribly new about using prey/pack drives, many trainers have been doing this for decades now.

Jason L

Posted : 11/28/2009 1:05:05 AM

Liesje, Really nice videos. I have to try the hop along dance next time I work with Obie LOL. Coke seems to like it a lot!

Now how Nikon outs a tug versus a ball is really interesting. With a tug his out is really quick and clean and unambiguous and his re-engagement is fast too. With the ball he is much more intense and the out seems at time to be very conflicted. With the tug he could pass for one of the dogs in Ivan Balabanov's DVD in which the training is built around fast, unambiguous outs (where the rhythm of training going like bite - out - obedience - re-bite - out - obedience). Do you ever use tug with Nikon in obedience? Are you not happy with the intensity of his drive with tug? Also, the video seems like it's more drive building (with lots of pressure and release) than obedience. Do you actually incorporate confrontational techniques llike flanking and choking in obedience?

Btw, love the fact Nikon clearly relishes a good fight. You flanked him and he is still in there fighting (with his tail wagging even!). Good boy!

poodleOwned

Posted : 11/28/2009 2:06:48 AM

huski
PO what would you do with a dog who had a much stronger food drive then they did a prey/play drive? My dog has enormous fun training in food drive, much more so than she would prey drive as her prey drive is just not that strong. I believe in using the dog's strongest drive be that prey, pack or food drive.

I would sing praises to whoever gave him/ her to me and get on with working with him/her like i did my Lab in the photo next to me. I would make it exciting drivey and fun like i did. It is in some ways a whole lot simpler. Even variable reinforcemenrt schedules can make food driven dogs look really drivey.

At the same time, i would build some of the other drives. You never know when they might be handy,

I personally don't know why you think you breed shouldn't work well. It is not that hard to get a beagle's nose up off the ground and working even with my limited bag of tricks. The best ever tracking dog that i worked with was a beagle. He was unreal. I think that you handicap your dogs success by not having a very posiitve attitude towards your dog and it's wonderful attributes.:) I think Beagles are wonderful dogs and love working with them. I hope you approach the starting post with confidence in your dog's ability .

huski
Personally I don't see anything terribly new about using prey/pack drives, many trainers have been doing this for decades now.

No they are not new. But some of our understanding is. For example it is just not true to claim that Adrenalin is the Neuro Peptide of Predatory Aggression.

Play and prey rewards break down into further parts and there are some things based on brain chemistry and function that suggest that we should do things a bit differently . We didn't have any of this information till relatively recently.

huski

Posted : 11/28/2009 2:28:19 AM

poodleOwned
I personally don't know why you think you breed shouldn't work well. It is not that hard to get a beagle's nose up off the ground and working even with my limited bag of tricks. The best ever tracking dog that i worked with was a beagle. He was unreal. I think that you handicap your dogs success by not having a very posiitve attitude towards your dog and it's wonderful attributes.:) I think Beagles are wonderful dogs and love working with them. I hope you approach the starting post with confidence in your dog's ability

Where have I said I don't think my breed is capable of working well??

You mustn't have read my posts above because I actually said I can't wait to get her in the trial ring and show everyone what a beagle is capable of. Unfortunately I've encountered many people in obedience who don't release what the breed can do and do well, and tend to brush them off, or even laugh when you tell them you are training a beag to trial with.

I adore the breed and I LOVE working my girl, she's a fantastic dog and I would have a beag over a Border Collie, GSD, Lab, Goldie, Kelpie or any other more "traditional" obedience breeds any day! I'm actually quite insulted you have said I don't have a positive attitude towards my dog or my breed. I am nothing but proud of my dog and I can't wait to get her out there and believe me when we hit the trial ring I will be more than confident of her ability to work well and score highly.

I don't find they are hard to train at all and I think beags have stacks of potential if you harness it in the right way. They can certainly be more of a challenge than some other breeds, for a range of reasons. Like any dog it takes time to proof them and get them working reliably.

I would never call it easy to train a dog to trialling level, even if that dog was a high drive border collie, but hey props to you if you think it's so easy I can't wait to see you in the trial ring with a beagle :D

corvus

Posted : 11/28/2009 5:35:20 AM

Not everyone was here when our good friend Lee Charles Kelley was posting, but he was of the belief that there was prey drive to unlock and use in every dog. Given that Kivi is not a very prey driven dog, and yet I still accidentally got him all excited and drivey today just by using the cue I stupidly taught both he and Erik meant "We're gonna play something drivey!" for Erik while Kivi was next to me. I am a long way from having Kivi working for a tug whenever I like, but when he's in the mood he certainly will and he'll get more of a kick out of it than for food.

I have sporadically been trying to increase Kivi's toy drive since I got him, but I haven't put very much work into it. Nonetheless, he does still respond to the cue for drivey games with a lot of excitement, and I've had moments when he's got himself all drivey over something else, and I have successfully used it as an opportunity to get him playing a drivey game with me instead. I think that if I made a solid effort with Kivi and actually worked on it daily, he'd be working for games in time. I might test that theory one day. When I have more time!

Anyway, I'm a bit arrogant I guess. I tend to think anything is possible with an animal until I really try and find that it's actually not. I'm still hopeful I can teach Kivi to catch a frisbee, even though he currently ducks every time I think I've got him and toss it. The important thing is, I thought I would never be able to teach him to catch anything, then I tried it and he proved me wrong. And then he surprised me by transferring catching a soft ball to catching something else. When he's in the zone, nothing is more rewarding to him than catching something, and I feel sure that if I just concentrated on working on that for a while I'd get him ready to catch in all sorts of situations in which he would currently duck. It took two months of playing with the flirt pole on my own in the yard before he finally overcame his fear of it, but he did and now likes to chase it. You might say "Why bother with toys when he works so well for food?" To which I can only answer "I like seeing his eyes light up and the supreme satisfaction in his body when he catches a ball." I also like insidiously inserting myself into every aspect of my dog's life, so whenever he wants to do something, there I am ready to do it with him bigger and better than he could do it on his own. Wink

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you build drive for food, you can just as easily build drive for toys, even in dogs that don't have very strong drive for toys.

huski

Posted : 11/28/2009 5:51:40 AM

corvus
I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you build drive for food, you can just as easily build drive for toys, even in dogs that don't have very strong drive for toys.

I don't disagree that you can build prey drive in most dogs but why would you spend time building drive for a toy, where your dog has a drive for food that is and always will be much stronger? I would LOVE it if Daisy was as prey driven as she was food driven, and whilst I can get her working for a toy and playing tug games her food drive is naturally much stronger. Her eyes light up when we train in food drive and she chases the food in my hand even more exuberantly than she would a tug toy. In fact the way I use food is a bit like a prey item.

Isn't you Corvus who always says at the end of the day you can only shape your dog so much, you still have to work with their natural instinct?

corvus

Posted : 11/28/2009 7:48:15 AM

huski
why would you spend time building drive for a toy, where your dog has a drive for food that is and always will be much stronger?

Why not? If you like it, and your dog likes it, what does it matter if they naturally like something else more? You can still shape them to have fun with you in ways you enjoy as well as the ways your dog most enjoys. Kivi's food drive is stronger than his play drive as well, but things happen to him when he gets drivey for toys, and I love seeing the predator in him coming out. It never even occurred to me to ask why I would spend time building drive for things that aren't a primary drive for my dogs. Why wouldn't I? I love having versatility in the rewards I choose, and the more versatility I have the more I find that there's a bit of an art to selecting the right rewards. Sometimes to turn something into a useful reward you first need to build their drive for it. Kivi loves to play the catch-the-rope game in the dog park. It took a while to teach him to get drivey with me and the rope in the dog park, but it was so worth it. It's just one more thing he likes doing with me, and I love it because I have fun and Kivi has fun and what's better for a girl and her dog than just having high-powered fun together? And he looks spectacular when he's leaping around catching my rope and swinging off it. Wink

I like to use Penny as an example to try to make my point, here. Penny was originally terrified of the water and wouldn't go in past her ankles. I worked on her for about six months until I finally coaxed her to discover she could swim. Why spend all that time getting a dog that doesn't like the water swimming? Because for the rest of her life it was one of her great joys and something she was still happily doing until the day she died. It seems a bit weird to me to even ask the question. I do what I do because it's fun. Playing with dogs is fun.

huski
Isn't you Corvus who always says at the end of the day you can only shape your dog so much, you still have to work with their natural instinct?

Absolutely, but prey drive is in every dog's natural instinct. They are fundamentally predators after all. I tend to yadda on about working within an animal's natural limitations, and that just because we can do something with an animal doesn't mean we should. But working within natural limitations is not the same as only doing things that come naturally.

When all is said and done, I am most concerned with welfare. I will happily teach my animals a range of unnatural behaviours, overcome their instinctive responses, and artificially build their interest in things I can reward them with. But only if I feel the benefit outweighs the cost to them. I like watching my animals develop their own likes, and I like introducing them to new things they may find over time to be a lot of fun.

huski

Posted : 11/28/2009 8:58:54 AM

corvus
huski
why would you spend time building drive for a toy, where your dog has a drive for food that is and always will be much stronger?

Why not? If you like it, and your dog likes it, what does it matter if they naturally like something else more? You can still shape them to have fun with you in ways you enjoy as well as the ways your dog most enjoys. Kivi's food drive is stronger than his play drive as well, but things happen to him when he gets drivey for toys, and I love seeing the predator in him coming out. It never even occurred to me to ask why I would spend time building drive for things that aren't a primary drive for my dogs. Why wouldn't I? I love having versatility in the rewards I choose, and the more versatility I have the more I find that there's a bit of an art to selecting the right rewards. Sometimes to turn something into a useful reward you first need to build their drive for it. Kivi loves to play the catch-the-rope game in the dog park. It took a while to teach him to get drivey with me and the rope in the dog park, but it was so worth it. It's just one more thing he likes doing with me, and I love it because I have fun and Kivi has fun and what's better for a girl and her dog than just having high-powered fun together? And he looks spectacular when he's leaping around catching my rope and swinging off it.

I didn't mean that you should find your dog's primary drive and stick to it.

I was referring to the idea that it's more ideal to utilise prey drive than food drive, or that one is better than the other. I like to work in my dog's primary drive, that's not to say I won't use or build prey or pack drive but that I'm not going to force her to work in a drive that, even when we've spent lots of time building and developing it is just not as strong as her food drive. Like I said above, prey or pack drive might be great for some things but when I want 110% I am not going to stuff around by not using her primary drive.

There are lots of reasons why I would prefer to have a prey driven dog, but at the end of the day no matter how much I try to develop Daisy's prey drive (and she has decent prey drive) it will never be her primary drive. Why would I want to get 80% out of her when I could have 110%?

There are some dogs who you would struggle to get any prey drive out of no matter how much you develop it. Take live stock guardian breeds - they are a classic example of a dog who is bred specifically not to have any prey drive. That's not to say there aren't some out there who do, but that it's not something the breed is bred to have.

ETA: It's also the insinuation that you can't get as much out of a dog using food drive as you can with prey drive that irritates me. My dog is capable of working just as well in food drive as another dog is capable of working in prey drive. They are trained much the same way, in fact I use food like you would a prey item often when developing/building drive. The way I train Daisy to work in drive would be almost identical if I had a toy in my hand. The response it produces is the same.

Liesje

Posted : 11/28/2009 10:26:30 AM

poodleOwned
I think personally that using prey and play rewards is the new dog training frontier, and besides that it is enormous fun.

Maybe I just don't understand this statement....some SchH trainers have been training this way for decades or more. Certainly not a new frontier, using the dog's various drives.

Liesje

Posted : 11/28/2009 10:33:10 AM

huski, my TD's Malinois (who competes nationally) has nearly equal ball/toy and food drive. However he usually uses the same concept I do: toy when he wants drive, food to teach a new behavior or if cleaning up precision. As I said before, I personally do not see the difference in using these drives for obedience, but for us, using the toy/ball/prey drive is just far more practical. That is more about the type of training we are doing and how we reward our dogs than which drive is better or more effective. The tug/fight and retrieve aspects that come into play when using a toy with your dog are things we use in certain areas of the sport like protection and the formal retrieves (which are not only done on the flat, but on a taller jump and over a steep A-frame). Also, most people do a lot of foundation work with their puppies which involves NO obedience but lots of play, building drive for their toy, some frustration (backtying agitation), and tons of confidence building. At the same time, my puppy was also earning food for learning basic skills but there's no way to use food the same way I used toys. Originally he was *only* interested in food rewards, but I knew that wasn't going to cut it for his line of work so I worked super hard for (and still work to maintain) his ball drive.

Kim_MacMillan

Posted : 11/28/2009 10:54:43 AM

Liesje, you've been giving me the motivation to try something....I like the idea of using toys for "drive" work and using food for "precision" work. So I'm going to set a goal with myself, and that is to break the tugs back out and see what we can get Gaci to accomplish. I know that in order for Gaci to find the tug enticing, she has to be revved up already......

I took her outside today, with only a tug, and I made it a point to just get her amped up and work on tug. I spent a good few minutes just playing chase games...running zigzags, restraining her and letting her go when I take off running, and making low, quick movements or throwing leaves. Once she got all hot n' bothered, I pulled out the tug and we had a great tug session, reminding me more of how she tugged when she was younger. I could hold her collar and she got even more excited....I gently push her back and forth while tugging...playing a lot of chase first where she couldn't get it....and finally letting her win. Took all of four minutes or so but I wanted to stop while she was having fun.

I'm going to continue to use food in agility training...for now...as I don't want to try to use tug when it's not that high for her, as I do know that using a mediocre reinforcer can inhibit training, and since we don't have any problems (just working on increasing tug fun to see if we can make any breakthroughs) I'll keep them separate for now.

Some photos of Gaci's tugging today....lots of intensity and complete focus....we'll see if we can a) continue to make it stronger, but more importantly b) transfer its use to other situations other than just "fun".