Drives vs. Rewards; Working IN Drive vs. Training...

huski

How do you go about fading out the reward? Do you work toward getting it off you and releasing the dog to it? My trainer trains PP dogs as well as doing Schutzhund/IPO and works on getting the prey item off him so he releases the dog to it. I will use the same principle with food.

You can do it that way but for the things where I want the dog focused on me/my face (like heeling, fronts and finishes) I prefer to reward in the two basic positions, so the dog is always getting the reward exactly as he is in the correct position.  Basic positions in SchH are sitting in front and sitting on the side.  That is why in the vid you can see me returning to the dog to reward him in that position.  I also break into play during heeling after I get a few steps or a good sequence I am pleased with (or if the dog is fading, to bring the drive back up).  To fade the reward and hide it I whip it into my left armpit, put it in a coat pocket, or just hold it in my left hand.

Liesje

huski

How do you go about fading out the reward? Do you work toward getting it off you and releasing the dog to it? My trainer trains PP dogs as well as doing Schutzhund/IPO and works on getting the prey item off him so he releases the dog to it. I will use the same principle with food.

 

You can do it that way but for the things where I want the dog focused on me/my face (like heeling, fronts and finishes) I prefer to reward in the two basic positions, so the dog is always getting the reward exactly as he is in the correct position.  Basic positions in SchH are sitting in front and sitting on the side.  That is why in the vid you can see me returning to the dog to reward him in that position.  I also break into play during heeling after I get a few steps or a good sequence I am pleased with (or if the dog is fading, to bring the drive back up).  To fade the reward and hide it I whip it into my left armpit, put it in a coat pocket, or just hold it in my left hand.

Liesje

The video is more to show what he will take for the ball and how it compares to the tug.  I'll try to video some actual obedience later today.  I'd say it's about 60% work and 40% tug/play/prey.  The confrontational stuff I use in obedience is a lot less, usually nothing other than pushing him with my legs to get him fighting.

Hi 

I will try to do some videos of both of my dogs this week. Luci is really good at obedience, and i hope to show you why many people like her style. I will also show how i reward her with play and prey and how different it is to my next dog. It would be nice to have a different breed comparison to have a look. I am a very average handler and some what embarassed by it. I apologise in advance for my mistakes. I teach the out by very quickly starting again, but don't make a huge feature of it. I sometimes throw the toy away from me and engage with her when she comes back. I have to be careful with Luci doing this and will expalin when i can why

Sam is a boy. A real boy.   He is very raw. I have had him for five months now . He is easy to engage and work with. I am still using some food with him on some features of heeling.

Jason L

What happened to Coke? He escaped? No one is curious lol?

Yeah he got out, I still have no idea how and he hasn't tried since.  I had a big cinder block by one of the gates so I could hop over without having to unlatch it (that gate has FIVE latches on it since Coke pushed his way out once), so maybe he got up on there and made the jump.  I was freaked out b/c I drove to the end of the street looking for him and there was this herd of skunks out!  He comes back eventually for food so I threw a bunch in the yard, opened all the gates, and sent Kenya out.  She eats really loud, she snarfs around in the grass snorting so this attracted Coke and he came back but it was 2am by the time they finished eating the food and we got everyone in an settled.  Nikon was filthy b/c he tried to dig out when he saw Coke out (he always tips us off by barking hysterically when Coke is on the outside of the fence).  Someone on the GSD board is sending me an unused e-collar so we are going to nip this recall thing in the bud.

huski

It produces the same motor pattern in the dog's brain, no matter which 'drive' you are using.

Says who? Maybe I'm wrong, but as I understand it, being "in drive" is a state, but it doesn't exist in isolation of the rewards, otherwise you wouldn't have "food drive" and "prey drive". I learnt recently that drive is classified as an establishing operation, which means that it increases the value of ordinary rewards (e.g. food, tug). The way I see it, if working in food drive and working in prey drive are the same, than that is assuming that the rewards of food and tug (or chasing/biting etc) are the same. 

I think you're describing a level of drive, or excitement and focus, that looks much the same regardless of the reward, but to say that it is the same just because it looks the same is jumping the gun to me. Working in drive surely involves the drive and the reward going hand-in-hand. I suppose drive doesn't have to be defined by the reward the way I keep wanting to define it by the reward, but the reason I keep wanting to define it by the reward is because I see the rewards as very different, and the methods by which we use drive games are quite basic and directly related to the rewards we intend to use.

Here's a wild idea: When I go to the dog park with Kivi and Erik, I ALWAYS take treats for them with me, and I always have toys for them. The dogs know this as it has always been the way. Yet, if I want them to be beautifully reliable today, then before I let them go I ask them for something easy and pop them the best treat I have. From there on, Kivi especially (as Erik is stil in training) will have a little section of his brain devoted to listening out for me, and he will check in on his own, come running the moment I say his name, and I'll reward him more or less randomly (although continuously). Now, if I don't do this before I let them go, Kivi will still come when called, but it will be less reliable, he will be less focused on me, and it will be a good five or ten minutes before he checks in on his own. I've been thinking about this and wondering if he just needs to know I have good food on me, but knowing what little I do about establishing operations, now, my idea is that the initial treat is an establishing operation and perhaps what I did was not showing my dog that I had good food on me, as I always have good food on me, but more like putting him in a state where he anticipates getting the good food. Where one treat goes others are sure to follow for Kivi. If I were smart, I'd start pairing that first treat with a word to tell him "I have a pile of rewards here waiting for you" and fading out the first treat. It might tell me if I were right or wrong, but maybe not if he learns the word equates to a treat and where one treat goes others are sure to follow.

Anyway, this seems a little off topic, but I don't think it is. I think focusing on building drives and finding that optimum working level is not really fully appreciating the applications of drive. I'm still inclined to think that a drive for food and a drive for tug are two different things, even when they are developed to the extent where they look the same, but I also think it's self-limiting to define a drive by its reward (yet I keep doing it). I'm entertaining the idea that you can get quite clever between reward selection and drive and you can move beyond building drive for a reward and keeping them tightly paired. Personally, drivey games with toys are still my ideal for rewards mostly because dogs love them and I love them and I think it's good practice to have your dog working through very high levels of excitement so they are better able to think through it when it sneaks up on both in a non-training situation.

 I realise that was a bit of a crazy contradicting post. Let me try to sort out my own confusion.

Drive FOR toys and drive for food are to me different things, but the STATE of drive is not dependent on the type of reward. I think the way drive is currently used in dog training is generally in the sense of building drive for one thing or another and then keeping it tightly paired to that reward, and that's what I was thinking when I say prey drive and food drive aren't the same even when they look the same.  

corvus

Here's a wild idea: When I go to the dog park with Kivi and Erik, I ALWAYS take treats for them with me, and I always have toys for them. The dogs know this as it has always been the way. Yet, if I want them to be beautifully reliable today, then before I let them go I ask them for something easy and pop them the best treat I have. From there on, Kivi especially (as Erik is stil in training) will have a little section of his brain devoted to listening out for me, and he will check in on his own, come running the moment I say his name, and I'll reward him more or less randomly (although continuously).

I also bring a ball out with Nikon for emergency recalls but the difference is I have to sneak it.  If he knows I have it, he will stick to my side, circling me and whining.  The ball is just way, way more valuable to him than even running around the park.  I usually hide it in a tote, but sometimes like today he smells it in there and won't leave the bag alone.  "Running at the dog park" quickly turned into Coke and Kenya playing, and Nikon playing fetch with his ball.

corvus

Drive FOR toys and drive for food are to me different things, but the STATE of drive is not dependent on the type of reward. I think the way drive is currently used in dog training is generally in the sense of building drive for one thing or another and then keeping it tightly paired to that reward, and that's what I was thinking when I say prey drive and food drive aren't the same even when they look the same.  

Hi Corvus

I would agree that you have put your finger on a huge issue. Jaak Pankseep would suggest that in Food Drive we are using the Seeking Part of the brain, in Prey Drive we are also using the seeking part of the brain. BUT i would suggest that a lot of the work that we think we are doing in "Prey Drive" is actually using the PLAY part of the brain which is quite different from the Seeking circuit and has some wonderful attributes. The body language is all wrong and the response is all wrong for it to be Prey Drive. Once I made this assumption it was possible ot understand some of the anomalies  that i have seen.

BTW operant and classical conditioning are supposed to use yet another part of the brain. It helps to understand why we see different stlyes of behaviour for different modes of behaviour response.

It is believed that the SEEKING and PLAY states are Antagonisitic.

corvus

Why are you so sure you could never get Daisy working as well for tug as she does for food?

My experience with all of my dogs (Lab, and 2 poodles ) and many of the dogs that i have worked with is that drive enhancement in one area has resulted in drive enhancement in other areas. My older poodle who used to sniff at food will leap for small pieces of food now.

My Lab who would swap his mum for a scrapping of food was awesome at tug. He would leap a good 5ft in the air to get a tiny portion of food.

My younger boy who could sometimes be anxious about food, takes food like a pig and plays very well.

corvus

 I realise that was a bit of a crazy contradicting post. Let me try to sort out my own confusion.

Drive FOR toys and drive for food are to me different things, but the STATE of drive is not dependent on the type of reward. I think the way drive is currently used in dog training is generally in the sense of building drive for one thing or another and then keeping it tightly paired to that reward, and that's what I was thinking when I say prey drive and food drive aren't the same even when they look the same.  

My point is that once the dog is in drive it looks the same and is the same 'state' no matter what you used to get them there. I'm not talking about food and prey being the same, I'm talking about working a dog IN food and prey drive being the same.

Working in drive is not just about the food/prey reward. Dogs find working in drive satisfying on it's own, because it's exciting, and they get a chemical reward (release of endorphins). Like I said in an earlier post, Daisy has coughed up food after eating it and has left it on the ground, because working in drive is not just about the food/prey item nor is it just the food/prey item that is rewarding.

 Yeah, I get what you're saying, huski. Like I said, you're talking about an optimum working level of drive.

I have to say, though, that I wonder if that optimum level of drive should look the same regardless of the reward you're using. If you're using food in the same way you would use a toy (chasing), aren't you tapping into the same prey (or play) thing you tap into when you play tug?

Erik gets very stupid when we are preparing his food, and it got to the point where you only had to walk into the kitchen and glance at his bowl and he'd start dancing around barking. The barking quickly turns into something quite mindless as the meat comes out and the bowls go on the counter. We had to start leaving the food on the counter for, like, an hour after dishing it up to take the truth out of all his predictors for imminent meals. When Erik has lost his mind over food it just looks different to when he's lost his mind over a toy. And that holds for anywhere along the drive continuum, really. He just looks different to me. He has the same amount of energy, and he might do the same things, but the intent is different. When he gets hold of his food he's going to wolf it down as fast as he can. When he gets hold of his toy he's going to bite it, shake it, and then rip bits off it. I was just outside with him this afternoon playing drivey chase the toy games and I just don't know. I can see what you're saying in that it looks much the same as what he's doing when I have a clicker in my hand and he will ignore food he drops because the food isn't as important as getting a click. I don't think he loses sight of the fact that when he gets a piece of food he's going to swallow it as fast as possible, whereas when he gets his toy he's going to bite it and start ripping bits off it. I feel like that's not something to ignore just because the state of excitement looks the same superficially.

pO, I agree with the idea that we are using PLAY and not prey drive. Like Pyry the Vallhund who is not much interested in games that don't involve killing small animals. He knows a tug is not a small animal. He knows his intention is to kill something. When he stands out in the rain for three days trying to catch a rat in the wood pile, he is not playing. When he is having a rare game of tug, he's not going to kill that tug toy, although he might pretend to. My mum's dog Jill actually has very low prey drive, for all that she will chase things until she is too exhausted to stand. She can look at my pet rabbits and not have this sudden need to sink her teeth into them and shake them the way Pyry does! Erik is the same. He'll tug like a fiend and quite enjoys chasing, but he's even less interested in my rabbits than Kivi is.

corvus

 Yeah, I get what you're saying, huski. Like I said, you're talking about an optimum working level of drive.

I have to say, though, that I wonder if that optimum level of drive should look the same regardless of the reward you're using. If you're using food in the same way you would use a toy (chasing), aren't you tapping into the same prey (or play) thing you tap into when you play tug?

Like I said earlier - I treat the food a bit like a prey item in that I get her to chase it and I shake it around to get her interest in it. I think our training sessions definitely incorporate play/pack drive, and when I play the chase game with her it might tap into a bit of prey drive in that she gets a lot of satisfaction from chasing the food. I've moved away from that now though and find I generally don't need to get her to chase food to build or maintain drive.

corvus

Erik gets very stupid when we are preparing his food, and it got to the point where you only had to walk into the kitchen and glance at his bowl and he'd start dancing around barking. The barking quickly turns into something quite mindless as the meat comes out and the bowls go on the counter. We had to start leaving the food on the counter for, like, an hour after dishing it up to take the truth out of all his predictors for imminent meals. When Erik has lost his mind over food it just looks different to when he's lost his mind over a toy. And that holds for anywhere along the drive continuum, really. He just looks different to me. He has the same amount of energy, and he might do the same things, but the intent is different. When he gets hold of his food he's going to wolf it down as fast as he can. When he gets hold of his toy he's going to bite it, shake it, and then rip bits off it. I was just outside with him this afternoon playing drivey chase the toy games and I just don't know. I can see what you're saying in that it looks much the same as what he's doing when I have a clicker in my hand and he will ignore food he drops because the food isn't as important as getting a click. I don't think he loses sight of the fact that when he gets a piece of food he's going to swallow it as fast as possible, whereas when he gets his toy he's going to bite it and start ripping bits off it. I feel like that's not something to ignore just because the state of excitement looks the same superficially.

There is quite a lot here to work with! I guess that i am more comfortable at a micro level of abstraction, where your view is at the macro level which gives a whole lot more useful bits of info. It is by making the observations that you make with indidvidual animals that people like myself who work better at  a more micro level can go back  and see what is happening. It is a real two way street. I believe that we are making equivalent statements at different levels of abstraction. Many of the comments that i am making hold for most mammals in different ways and have human analogues as well.

Erik sounds a lot like my old Lab Cadbury. He was insane with food and would do drivey beautiful work on the thinnest of thin reward ratios. He loved for the food to be chucked, high low away anything to give it a bit of interest and life. There was also issues of food placement. He could never ever handle luring, it was way too much for him.There is another component of food that often gets left out of drive talk and that there is another system that controls food intake EXCEPT in some of the breed freaks that humans have made, like a lot of gun dogs, beagles etc. This system seeks to regulate input to achieve a balance between weight  and predatory prowess.It is obviously not working with some of these breeds. The brain center and chemicals are quite different.

It is predicted that Animals are excited and stirred by the idea of a reward. I am not suprised by the clicker behaviour,The reward itself is a bit of a dead end. We get this in tracking a lot. Dogs will zoom over track rewards. In Lindsay, there is an anomaly noted where i think mice run over food on a maze floor to go for food at the end. When i am asked what drive my animals are in when they track i say that they are in seeking mode, they are curious and wanting to find new novel things. It is an enormous drive in animals way so that animals will often choose to turn it on if they can. It is what keeps them alive and able to find food.

Play mode is hugely advantageous  to us. In Play they are alert, have increased dopamine production, still have fine motor control and are more likely to try creative things. They are more likely to learn new things. It is hugely rewarding to them. I think that many people have play mode when they think they have prey mode. In terms of performance, i think if you can get your dog into play mode , the world is your oyster. Suddenly you have this dog with a huge drivey grin on their face, and there are so many ways that you can mantain that mode legally in most dog sports situations.My oldest dog snaps into this mode from zero with two hand touches.

The hassle with Play mode is that it is tricky to get and keep for many dogs.

I think that Prey mode duration is another point. Many of the older breeds have quite high levels of predatory success. If you watch either of my minis, and observe the prey that they see, they just don't waste their time on prey that  isn't worth going for . They are dead set serious, and very very quick. It makes no sense for these dogs to be in prey mode for very long. Why use all that energy to no avail? So if i want to work in Real prey mode with them i might as well find a brick wall and start forming a gravel rash on my skull.But i will show both of them playing a game that both of them find hugely rewarding at the end of a training session which i think is in prey mode. I need to watch the body language

again to be sure.

poodleOwned

I think that Prey mode duration is another point. Many of the older breeds have quite high levels of predatory success. If you watch either of my minis, and observe the prey that they see, they just don't waste their time on prey that  isn't worth going for . They are dead set serious, and very very quick. It makes no sense for these dogs to be in prey mode for very long. Why use all that energy to no avail?

Ah, that's interesting. There's a quality to Pyry's prey drive that I've always loved. He's very smart about it. He rarely loses his head, and even when he has got through a door and has found one of my rabbit cages, he doesn't run or bark or bite random things and his eyes don't go glassy. He's thinking the whole time, trying to figure out how to get in. He doesn't usually expend much energy in hunting until it's a good bet. He does a lot of waiting around, and he will poke around for days if he thinks there's something to poke around for, but he won't do much until he thinks he can get at the animal.

Something that Pyry taught me, though, was the benefits of doing stuff with dogs that they love to do. Pyry likes to forage. I don't call it hunting because he has nothing in his sights, but he's definitely looking for opportunities. The funnest thing you can do with Pyry in his eyes is to forage with him. He'll go on his own, but it's better with a friend. I've taken him on fast paced foraging trips through the bush and in that moment he's with me like he never is when he's playing. I always stick my head in the bush he's sticking his head in, and run around looking at things from different angles when he's found something of interest. For that reason, the day he got out and found a bird nest he saw me coming and instead of running off like he normally does, or ignoring me, he ran straight to me at full speed. I swear he thought I'd come to get his bird nest for him. Of course, I then ruined it all by taking him home and you can't trick him more than once. But if I lived with him, I'd be using foraging trips as a relationship building exercise. Sometimes Kivi gets the foraging bug, and if I can (i.e, he's not heading for a stinky swamp ten minutes before I need to go to work), I go with him rather than calling him back to do something else. I don't want him to think I'm the one stopping him from doing something he wants to do. I'd rather insinuate myself into it somehow and turn it into something fun we can do together. Sometimes I initiate foraging trips. I don't think I can use that in training, but I can use it in general conditioning.