E-collar discussion

JackieG

The other problem I've seen with people using e collars is that it's too easy to up the intensity in the hopes that you will get a better response or a faster response. Maybe you will but you might end up with a dog who is always anticipating the pain and isn't really learning anymore. The worst thing I've seen is that people are prone to frustration in training.  It's usually a  problem with their training methods or they haven't properly taught the dog what is wanted.  It's just too easy to hit that button and burn the dog when you are having a bad day training and you aren't communicating to the dog what he should be doing.

Competition brings out the best in some people and it brings out the worst in others.  My advice to anyone contemplating using an e collar is to get trained by a pro who knows what they are doing.  Never use an e collar just to make a training task easier or quicker.

Completely right, Jackie. 

I really, honestly feel like the basis of your training has to be solid, and the ecollar is just a tool to finesse it.  If you are screwing up your dog in the first place, the ecollar can really blow it up....Because the ecollar creates results FAST - either beautifully positive when used correctly, or horribly negative when used incorrectly. 

NEVER just follow the video, or advice online, because none of them can see your dog and its' reaction to your handling and use of the collar.  Find a trainer who has plenty of experience with ecollars and a VARIETY of methods and tools; watch more than one of their classes, talk to the owners about their dogs - you may find someone who had a dog exactly like your own whom you'd never pick out as similar in behavior, because they've shaped into something completely new (and better!). 

I'm definitiely not a promoter of e-collars and I tend to be quite cautious about punishments, but I've always had a kind of odd fascination with ecollar use. 

It seems to me that in the right hands it can be used in a way that is acceptable when it comes to my own mental guidelines, but how does one learn to use the collar in this way?  There are tons of AWFUL ecollar trainers out there and I can't stomach seeing their methods in person at all - I might get myself in trouble if that happened.

My biggest interest lies with the comparison of vibration to stim and the animal's response when they are used in the same context.  In my mind, if the ecollar is used as many here say then the results should be quite similar, so why go with stim over vibration?

I try to remain as open to new ways of looking at things as I can.  An example: I use prong collars on a few of the dogs in my classes because I've come to see that for some animals the prong is far less aversive than a head halter in some situations (the rate of use currently sits at around 3% btw).  I always try other options first, but it does sit in my toolbox for those moments when it is more humane to use that tool than to force the issue with one more widely considered less aversive.  I'm trying to be just as open-minded yet open-eyed as I can when it comes to e-collars.

Kim_MacMillan

I just think that while you can get there using an ecollar, you don't need it to get where you're going. I sayt hat because no police dogs that I have known or seen (in this area) ever wear ecollars to train distance work, and those types of dogs do a lot more stressful work with no room for error than schutzhund dogs, so for that I know it can be done.

Correct you do not *need* an e-collar for anything, and I don't know any decent trainers that would even consider using one in the actual training phase, even if they used one for simplicity sake later on.

I also agree that it makes zero sense to pair a correction with a reward to lessen the effect.  To me that just sounds stupid and defeats the purpose.  If a correction is warranted, then give the appropriate correction.  Why give a correction and try to water it down?  If the dog cannot recover from the correction without an immediate reward, then the correction was inappropriate.  IMO this goes for e-collars, prongs, chokes, voice, whatever you are using.  To "positivize" a punishment is at best counterproductive and I'd imagine horribly confusing for the dog.

FWIW, police work is actually far less technical and far less precise than SchH work, there's actually a lot more room for "error" as far as what behaviors are allowed (they air scent, they don't require dogs to bite sleeves, there are no real requirements as far as correct gripping behaviors, street bites usually end up in "manual outs" where the dog is physically lifted or choked off the suspect or decoy....these things do not fly in Schutzhund training or competition and usually end up in a dog washing out).  It's actually very different.  You can do really good police work with a nervy, unsound dog.  The work is not any more less stressful; both are stressful in different ways.  Difficult to explain without seeing or doing one or both.  Police work is far more practical but SchH is specifically design to pressure and challenge the breed mentally, physically, and instinctively.  It is rare to have a dog that really excels at both.

Liesje

FWIW, police work is actually far less technical and far less precise than SchH work, there's actually a lot more room for "error" as far as what behaviors are allowed (they air scent, they don't require dogs to bite sleeves, there are no real requirements as far as correct gripping behaviors, street bites usually end up in "manual outs" where the dog is physically lifted or choked off the suspect or decoy....these things do not fly in Schutzhund training or competition and usually end up in a dog washing out).  It's actually very different.  You can do really good police work with a nervy, unsound dog.  The work is not any more less stressful; both are stressful in different ways.  Difficult to explain without seeing or doing one or both.  Police work is far more practical but SchH is specifically design to pressure and challenge the breed mentally, physically, and instinctively.  It is rare to have a dog that really excels at both.

I'll give you that, because I have no idea of the real work that goes into either. I have only seen demonstrations, so that is far from any sort of knowledge. *G*

I guess I just meant that I'm wondering if the ecollar actually does something that other methods cannot do, or is it just simplifying what might have just taken a little bit longer to teach/proof to efficiency?

The other thing I might be concerned about in using the ecollar if I was thinking of using it, is the possibility of the dog becoming "collar-wise" during competition. I have found that dogs become quite collar-wise over two main collars - head halters and ecollars, even more than prongs and slip collars (although it happens with all of them!), and I wonder if the dog would end up with any sort of dependency on the ecollar to perform correctly? Again, I have no idea on how it would be used, and to what extent in schutzhund, but it might be a consideration to use before jumping into it. And, that is assuming that ecollar use is not permitted during competition - I do not know but I would think they are not allowed.

Kim_MacMillan

Again, I have no idea on how it would be used, and to what extent in schutzhund, but it might be a consideration to use before jumping into it. And, that is assuming that ecollar use is not permitted during competition - I do not know but I would think they are not allowed.

We train to work against the potential for a dog to become collar wise, if necessary.  Some people will put the dog's flat collar on tightly to simulate the feeling of the ecollar, if they're concerned about it.  (What do people do for dogs that are collar wise on the head halter, do you know??  I'm totally curious.)  You're correct, ecollars, like prongs, head halters, etc are only for training, and are not allowed on the competition field for SchH (nor obed, et al, obviously).

Kim_MacMillan

and I wonder if the dog would end up with any sort of dependency on the ecollar to perform correctly?

 Emma is collar wise, so I use it to my advantage. I put a new, "pretty" collar on her, when we're going into the ring, and pick out a leash that she likes. That probably doesn't work for every dog, BUT for a dog who is vain and silly, it's awesome. She walks in like she owns the ring.

You would really do the same thing with a head halter that you have to do with any tool a dog can become wise on - train without the tool and start over! The goal is to avoid creating a "wise" dog for any tool in the first place, if you are going to later compete without that tool.

It's why "tools" - ie special collars - really should be for management rather than training - for those moments when you need control but are not able to train, so that the dog doesn't become dependent on the tool, so the human doesn't become highly reinforced for using the tool and so the human doesn't become dependent on the tool, and so that the dog still gets trained separately on the normal collar it will wear for competition.

Kim_MacMillan

I guess I just meant that I'm wondering if the ecollar actually does something that other methods cannot do, or is it just simplifying what might have just taken a little bit longer to teach/proof to efficiency?

Yes...

• Distance work (send out, running blinds, recalls, retrieves, out of motion exercises - these are done on a football sized field in SchH, not a small show ring)
  
• Removing the physical link from handler to dog (leash/line). 
  
• For many dogs a prong correction is much harsher (maybe more painful, or maybe more significant mentally) than the e-collar.
  
• It is also simplifying, by removing the leashes and lines. 
  
• It helps a great, great deal with timing. 
  
• As I said earlier there are times when you need the dog to get a correction and not know where/who it is from. 
  
• Some people are afraid to give the appropriate level of correction, others over-correct.  Think of it this way, if you have a prong, or even a choke or flat on your dog and you are frustrated, you might unintentionally be popping the leash too harshly out of frustration.  Now, with a remote you might punch your finger down really hard, but if the dial is set to 3 then 3 is the level the dog gets.
• Use the vibration or tickle as a marker rather than needing a second collar to do the same task.
• Because of how they are fit and used, less chance of common equipment failure or misuse (prongs get snagged, the snap apart, the handler might trip on the line and unintentionally correct the dog...).

 I have no experience with e-collars other than using an invisible fence - nor do I have any formal training experiences ( a few classes but nothing like most of you!)

Honestly perhaps some of you are very sensitive to the stimulation - I have felt the "shock" from B's collar and it is like a shock off a carpet.  If that hurts you we have different pain sensitivities as do dogs.

If I were to ever do real bird work or field work with B the only way I would get him back 100% is if he was trained with an e-collar.  Period.  The reference to police dogs is not applicable because the breeds used are extremely handler focused.  Bugsy is not. He is over 4 yrs old now and we have put endless hours into recall and training.  He can do what you need for his CGC and does well in 'working' situations once he decides he wants to do well.

With some guidance from Jackie we were able to this summer finally swim in a body of water in which there were waterfowl.  Not once did he retrieve his 'duck' without  first (second, third, etc.) considering going for the real thing.  Something he has done in the past in fact he has broken a prong collar (bent the metal) and broken a leather leash in order to free himself to go on a self-directed hunt. 

He is not 'normal' I get that and he isn't a breed and he isn't formally trained (to the levels that you all have and do do) BUT he exists and a dog like him, who isn't handler focused, food motivated, bores with click training, could care less about a toy when the real thing exists and who quite frankly would rather follow his drive than earn a reward, IMHO is a perfect candidate for an e-collar.  If I knew a good trainer that would teach me how to use an e-collar without screwing up his use of the e-fence I would do it in a heartbeat.  I would love to have him off leash for hiking, swimming etc but I will never be able to because he will never be 100% reliable.

And no dog that can break a prong collar is going to be 'hurt' be a small stimulation or vibration

I do agree that they aren't for all dogs - there is someone that has cornered the dog training market in this neighborhood who puts prongs and e-collars on every dog, everyone I have seen is less than 20lbs. It upsets me tremendously because it is so over the top and completely unnecessary for the vast majority of dogs.  The owners dont' know any better, it's repulsive.

But an e-collar on Bugsy so he can do more distance work in retrieves and be reliable off leash in open places would be wonderful

Kim_MacMillan

The other thing I might be concerned about in using the ecollar if I was thinking of using it, is the possibility of the dog becoming "collar-wise" during competition. I have found that dogs become quite collar-wise over two main collars - head halters and ecollars, even more than prongs and slip collars (although it happens with all of them!), and I wonder if the dog would end up with any sort of dependency on the ecollar to perform correctly? Again, I have no idea on how it would be used, and to what extent in schutzhund, but it might be a consideration to use before jumping into it. And, that is assuming that ecollar use is not permitted during competition - I do not know but I would think they are not allowed.

The dog wears a Fursaver during SchH competition and that is it.  I don't think the dog can even have any other type of collar on, on trial grounds the day of the competition (higher level competitions will have training sessions on the trial grounds before the trial starts).  At our club, all the dogs always have Fursavers on when they are out.  This isn't really to train them on the "competition collar" (when the dogs get in drive, they could be wearing ballet tu-tus and couldn't care less!), but because it's a very versatile collar (and never used as a choke, always on a dead link).

I can definitely see where a dog would become collar smart and have seen this, but I see it way more often with pet dog people using e-collars than in SchH.  In SchH we use them when we are actually working on proofing and perfecting something, not really as a management tool.  For example, my trainer is considering doing the imprinting with Nikon so we can work on the long down.  Currently our long down is not "long" because I have to stand a leash's length from my dog instead of hiding in the blind like the competition requires.  Nikon is super sensitive to my voice, so if he starts to shuffle or get up and I say "eh eh", he will get up and come over to me.  Again the e-collar is almost like it's own form of communication, aside from voice or direct touch.

My trainer's dog might come out one day wearing a Fursaver, a prong, and an e-collar and come out the next session naked.  He has had the most e-collar training of all the dogs in our club but has competed nationally. He is not collar-wise, at least not that I have seen.  He makes the same mistakes with the collar on!

ETA:  one other thing I forgot to mention about police work vs. SchH is that in fact, more SchH work is done off-lead (well, all of it except tracking, which is allowed to be off lead).  Unless the police dog is actively chasing a subject, or perhaps on a track, they are on a lead.  I'm willing to bet that many of our CGC dogs on this forum have better leash manners than some police dogs I've seen!

.

Liesje

The dog wears a Fursaver during SchH competition and that is it.  I don't think the dog can even have any other type of collar on, on trial grounds the day of the competition

They don't have to wear fursavers (at least not in USA), they can wear choke chains, but they must be on the dead ring, too.  I think fursavers are preferable for the coat on GSDs and other longer/thicker coated dogs, tho.  Plus, I imagine the nice fat appearance on the dog, makes it's very clear if someone was accidentally moving the collar (let alone a correction with it during the trial, a no-no.) 

Liesje

Currently our long down is not "long" because I have to stand a leash's length from my dog instead of hiding in the blind like the competition requires.  Nikon is super sensitive to my voice, so if he starts to shuffle or get up and I say "eh eh", he will get up and come over to me.  Again the e-collar is almost like it's own form of communication, aside from voice or direct touch.

I suspect you'll get exactly what you need out of the ecollar in this circumstance.  It gives a reinforcement when you need to maintain your distance.

Liesje

I'm willing to bet that many of our CGC dogs on this forum have better leash manners than some police dogs I've seen!

Wow...I can't believe that we would use a tool (to teach/correct/direct a dog) that we would prefer not to use on a human child or young person or an old person. 

I have questions/thoughts:

(1)  Why do some people involve their dogs in Schutzund Training?  They are not in law enforcement and they are not in need of the kind of protection afforded by the Schutzund methods.  Yes, it is impressive to see the relationship between dog and human but really...what is the point?

(2)  It might be a good idea to have a thread just for law enforcement types.  I think this e-collar discussion is cloudy considering that there are all kinds of folks on this site some of whom may consider e-collars without training if they hear it on this site.

(3)  A few of months ago I had to defend the fact that I would grab my dog by the collar if there was a problem with him trying to jump on my back and bite at me...nothing related to my Pitbull but related to another poster.   Would I consider an e-collar to do the work that I as a dog caregiver must do?  Not in a million years!  I would rather grab my dog...depend on my relationship with my dog...and if I am wrong about my relationship or I have been lazy in training my dog....so be it.  Would I use an e-collar,?  Not in a million years.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here.  I was a member of a Schutzund Club way back, and I appreciate the work, but I am also keenly aware that if human talent/relationship isn't there, then an e-collar is a bad substitute for the natural "relationship" between dog and human and that includes distance.

Man, this is not my night for being a favored poster....

spiritdogs

And, it depends which dog you use one on as to how the dogs perceive the stimulus.  I have seen dogs that don't care much about pain until it gets pretty severe

When Tasha was a youngster, she had some real escape artist tendencies. We tried an e-fence in conjunction with the physical fence. She showed very little concern for it at all so I tried it on myself. No way was it appropriate. Things may have improved since then, but it's not for me.

I suspect my Malinois had some pretty strong aversive training. There's no way to tell with him what's genetic and what's background, but he lacks courage and combined with a strong territorial drive, he's a dog that will always need to be managed. He'd let someone on the property and then bite them in the butt.

What I have noticed about Floyd is that he never engages in behavior that was previously trained out of him. I have a different style of walking than some people in that I like leting the dogs sniff, etc. I took years of walking with two other dogs for him to learn that it was OK.  Previously, he'd been perfectly behaved, but showed no joy in the idea of a leased walk. Despite living with counter cruisers, he's never attempted the behavior. It's very hard for him to think for himself about what would benefit him.

I hear a lot of people saying that I ought to count my blessings, and I do. However, this dog is not as resourceful nor as resiliant as the other two dogs. Tasha had two knee surgeries and she picked her fluffy butt up and had a great outcome. Floyd not so great. It's hard to motivate a dog that is afraid of pain.

Bruister

I'm not trying to be a jerk here.  I was a member of a Schutzund Club way back, and I appreciate the work, but I am also keenly aware that if human talent/relationship isn't there, then an e-collar is a bad substitute for the natural "relationship" between dog and human and that includes distance.

I have some definite reservations about using e collars , some that have not been mentioned here. 

The first aspect is the huge variabiltiy of percieved shock on one setting .it is hugely dependent on the dogs instanteaneous activity level, the temperature , the drive state just to name a few. Just because it has a dial on doesn't make it calibrated or scientific

The terminals are really really bad! Without shock, try wearing them around your neck at the precscribed tension. If that isn't adversive that i don't know what is!

I think that avoidance behaviours can be difficut for some dogs to establish even when well trained. I am astonished to see how long recalls with e collars can take.

Having said that, i am sure that the sound reduction from overbearing owners, and  the usual barrage of non contigent punishment  may allow some more senstive dogs some space to learn.

 Many of the brain's functions rely on electrical current. I think that most e collar stims would cause partial brain shut down for  a brief period of time,and this is i beilve a significant part of the deal. Often in demos we put the e collar around an arm. Well to make it fair put it around your neck. Have a user that can't communicate with you set the working levels. Make sure that  his /her vision is obscured becuase from what i have seen most people have an obscured vision towards their dogs as they have no idea what are symptons of discomfort for a dog.

 Would i use one ?  Well i sure would if it could fix something that i had no other chance of fixing, or i really needed to stop a dog in it's tracks for some reason. I just haven't had to do that too many times.

Here is some tech facts

It ain't the volts that hurt it is the current that flows and where it flows and for how long

The radio frequency control channel's frequency is in Megahertz. it is irrelevant to the strength of the stim.

 The current doesn't just merely pass form one terminal to the next. It goes everywhere! Say the path distance from the terminals is 1 inch. Then any path that you can draw between the terminals that is 2 inches will have 1/2 the current and so on and so forth.

 I am dissapointed at how little peer reviewed literature there is about e collars. If it was a drug, i have a suspicion that the trials required for approval would exceed all of the trails pro and con for e collars. I am always saddened when we use a tool ahead of sound science. It isn't the mark of a great caring civilisation to do so. If they are so good, and have so few side effects, then lets see the results . I am realy very unimpressed by some of the white papers out there. Many are quite mishcevious.