E-collar discussion

Bruister

Wow...I can't believe that we would use a tool (to teach/correct/direct a dog) that we would prefer not to use on a human child or young person or an old person. 

I have questions/thoughts:

(1)  Why do some people involve their dogs in Schutzund Training?  They are not in law enforcement and they are not in need of the kind of protection afforded by the Schutzund methods.  Yes, it is impressive to see the relationship between dog and human but really...what is the point?

I can answer this one for this case.

The German Shepherd was developed from working herding dogs around 1900 as an all-around working dog. Within a few years it was clear that the dogs were losing their working ability. Schutzhund was developed at this time as a test of working ability for German Shepherds. Only German Shepherds that had passed a Schutzhund test or a herding test were allowed to breed and thus have their progeny registered as German Shepherd Dogs. This is true in Germany to this day. It is only by testing the working ability of every generation that the strong working characteristics of the GSD have been maintained.

In the case of my breed of choice I want this. The shepherd is one of the most over bred dogs in America, but I think the bully breeds are catching up. By doing this and hips, eyes and elbows my chances of getting a healthy dog improve, are not guaranteed, but improved. I personally would like to see them go back to more herding standards as well.

As for e-collars, they are a tool and like any tool can be abused. I personally do not see the OP doing that. I personally think that electrified fencing is a heck of a lot more dangerous than a collar and a good majority of people don't seem to have an issue with that.

Karen mentioned Bugsy and breaking a prong. I can tell you that my old girl snapped a choke at 6 months, Kord snapped and bent the metal on a prong at 1 year. I no longer use these tools because they are not the tools I need anymore. The choke I gave up 10 years ago because I felt they cause more damage than a prong, the prong went into a box 2 years ago because it was apparent that it was ineffective on Kord. But if I had to I would go back to it for another dog, if it was needed.

Now Babe wore an invisible fence collar, her prey drive with small animals was off the charts and it was needed. And it did not seem to bother her, the beeps came and she learned her boundries. But there were still times when she ran right through it and would finally come back with her tail wagging. And yes I also wore it on my wrist before using it on her.

My dog weighs about 75lbs on average. But I can tell you that it is all muscle and solid strength. And the good majority of that is in the neck and shoulders. If he was allowed to go after something, or instinct took over, there would be no stopping him. He could easily latch on to something and bring it down, even something bigger and heavier, and wouldn't even break a sweat doing it. And because I know this I am always on guard to make sure that does not happen.

So basically it boils down to this. You use the tools that work for you, not all things are for all dogs, just like not all things are for all people. You do not have to like what someone does with their dogs, but you do have to respect their rights to decide and make their own choices. As long as there is no obvious abuse going on of course.

And kudos to Lies, she is trying to make an informed choice, she isn't running to the store to buy one and slap it on her dog and go wild like JPQ usually does.

Just wanted to chime in again...most folks who know me know that I am sometimes 'extreme' in my own views. I personally can not ever picture myself using an ecollar, prong, or a slip collar. I can't picture a scenario in which I would ever promote one or where one would work where something else would not.

However, I also know that when it comes to discussing something like Schutzhund, I am out of my league, as I have no idea what types of things go on, how things are trained, how things are proofed, etc. It's also probably why I would never do a sport like schutzhund, because a lot of the things used by mainstream trainers (I say mainstream because trainers like the one Liesje's sounds like are not common) go against my own personal values of what a dog is and how it should be treated. I am conflicted because while I acknowledge that Schutzhund is very high drive, very intense, and possibly dangerous, I also keep in mind that it is a sport, and I have to ask myself is it worth it to do certain things to animals in the name of sport. However, I keep an open mind and try not to judge others so I partake in discussions to at least try to help others come to conclusions.

In saying that, Liesje is not jumping on the bandwagon...she is asking questions, being asked questions that make her think, and make an educated decision. She is also working in a very specific context with a specific purpose (I think!). I doubt that if she decided to try it, she would start using it for everyday walks, or to correct recalls at the park, etc. If she thought it was the be all and end all - she would have just started using one and didn't inquire to the forum that she is involved with every day.

I don't think that people are going to run out and start buying ecollars because of this discussion though. If anything, most posts have been pretty concrete on why ecollars may not be a good choice and some are obviously anti-ecollar, and the discussion on why ecollars for the general pet-owning public are a bad idea is quite interesting. For an ecollar thread I'm actually quite interested in this thread, not because I want one or ever intend to use one, or even necessarily condone their use, but because I'm learning a little bit about how they are used in a sport that I do not understand.

Kim_MacMillan

I am conflicted because while I acknowledge that Schutzhund is very high drive, very intense, and possibly dangerous, I also keep in mind that it is a sport, and I have to ask myself is it worth it to do certain things to animals in the name of sport. However, I keep an open mind and try not to judge others so I partake in discussions to at least try to help others come to conclusions.

There is a split in the SchH world: those that do it as a sport, and those that do it for what it was designed for - a breed test for the German Shepherd dog.  You will find that many sport people will work any dog and use any method to get points.  Sport dogs are often the "prey monsters", dogs that are very object oriented and have (IMO) over the top prey drive.  They are precise and look flashy, but often there is no real power to the dog, no real courage or soundness in the head that the dog should have.  Those that are in the latter group (which I am finding myself more and more) do not do SchH as a sport to win competitions.  It is not an "ends justify the means".  The entire process of building the foundation and training the dog are what really counts.  It exposes all of the strengths and weaknesses of the dog and handler unlike *any* other dog job, sport, or activity on the planet.

Many people denounce SchH because they think it is painful and dangerous or simply just not something they care about....I ask them, when their child is missing in the woods and the SAR volunteers come in, when a person they love is trapped in an avalanche or a bombed out building, when their country is at war or a dangerous suspect is at large on the streets in their neighborhood....where do you think these dogs come from that are rescuing lost people, digging out trapped people, protecting national security, apprehending suspects?  How do you think these dogs were evaluated for breeding and whether or not they are capable of the work?  They come from generations and generations who have been selectively bred for agility, courage, drive to work, mental soundness, and the ability to work independently.  If that bothers people then don't get a German Shepherd dog, simple enough.

Bruister

I have questions/thoughts:

(1)  Why do some people involve their dogs in Schutzund Training?  They are not in law enforcement and they are not in need of the kind of protection afforded by the Schutzund methods.  Yes, it is impressive to see the relationship between dog and human but really...what is the point?

(2)  It might be a good idea to have a thread just for law enforcement types.  I think this e-collar discussion is cloudy considering that there are all kinds of folks on this site some of whom may consider e-collars without training if they hear it on this site.

(3)  A few of months ago I had to defend the fact that I would grab my dog by the collar if there was a problem with him trying to jump on my back and bite at me...nothing related to my Pitbull but related to another poster.   Would I consider an e-collar to do the work that I as a dog caregiver must do?  Not in a million years!  I would rather grab my dog...depend on my relationship with my dog...and if I am wrong about my relationship or I have been lazy in training my dog....so be it.  Would I use an e-collar,?  Not in a million years.

 

1.  SchH is a breed worthiness test for the German Shepherd dog.  K9 LEOs very, very rarely have breeding programs, especially good, well developed ones.  Their dogs have to come from somewhere.  They don't have time to do the selection and breeding since many dept are already going against lack of funding and whatnot.  Most use other brokers, breeders, or trainers that know how to select the appropriate "green" dogs.  

I don't just value having dogs as pets but I value the breed and preserving the breed with the correct physical and mental attributes.  

2.  We've already addressed this earlier, but many LEOs don't use e-collars in their training.  Their work does not require the same level of precision or distance control off leash.

3.  I'm not really sure what this has to do with e-collars or the scenarios I was specifically asking about.  The people I know that use e-collars do not use them as a management tool (ie, they won't slap an e-collar on the dog, bring the dog to a dog park, and start nicking the dog when he doesn't behave).

Anyway, like I said I'm interested in hearing from people who have used them.  I don't need a thread about SchH or all the assumptions made from people who don't do it.  I don't train LE K9s and don't plan to.

...when their child is missing in the woods and the SAR volunteers come in, when a person they love is trapped in an avalanche or a bombed out building, when their country is at war or a dangerous suspect is at large on the streets in their neighborhood....where do you think these dogs come from that are rescuing lost people, digging out trapped people, protecting national security, apprehending suspects? 

I'll give you the "apprehending suspects" part, although a stable dog trained with positive methods, capable of working when pressured, can certainly still do that job, and, thankfully, many do so without any aid from e-collars. However, if you look at the dogs that search for people in avalanches or dig out people, find bombs, cadavers, or contraband, you will find that they come from various breeds, and sometimes are mutts of unknown parentage from local shelters.  The dogs that searched at ground zero were Labs, Goldens, Shepherds, Aussies, Border Collies, Bloodhounds, Mutts....

Good post, Truley, and I would reiterate my point that, while I might not want to use the remote collar, I can see where some dogs, because of their particular neurology, might respond well to that. What seems like a punishment to you and me and even to other dogs might merely be a cue to them, one that is needed so that they know what you want. Again, such a device is not a standard go to device and I would try everything else in the book before considering it but if it was needed and did not harm the dog, then that cue, at whatever level is necessary could work. And this gets back to my summation, from many times before, that a punishment is only a punishment if the dog sees it as such. What we might see as a correction or punishment might merely be a cue to some dogs. However, I would always start with the lightest touch, first, such as treats and +R first. And I think many, if not most dogs, will respond to rewards first and easiest. Remote collars might be in the "toolbox" but it is under a pile of other stuff and I would have to pull out every other tool just to get to it. And that's only after making sure that the tools I have already used were used correctly. I'm not so "all-knowing" as to think I couldn't make a mistake with a lighter tool and assume that I must go to the next heavier tool.

I applaud Shutzund in that it Judges dogs on what they are bred to do, not on what they look like. After all if you believe that you are breeding the best possible working dog , then you do need to test it.

But i loose my hair a little when it is suggested that they only populate the ranks  of working dogs. All sorts of breeds make it as SAR dogs. Now a days when we are looking for urban search and rescue, dogs to find lost children and sick people mostly in nurban areas, my dogs (poodles) are a real choice. My oldest girl is a bit of a star at this role, just now she has been out in 30 degree (celcius) heat with the sun blazing on a very challenging track, and was as safe as houses. she worked along side a couple of Shutzhuund dogs, and a few gun dogs. She is black....

 My first choice as an avalanche or air scenting dog would be a Lab. They can be absolute freaks with huge work ethics.

My first choice as a tracking dog in poor conditions would be a rottie or a GSD from good working lines.  I rate poodles highly in urban condtions, but have reseravtions form a practical point of view in bush or heavy growth conditions. I ma not breed blind !!!

I still have major questions about Shutzhund tracking training and tracking with dogs trailing a bit, and the realtive effectiveness. But what i do like is working with people that are good with their dogs and respect mine too for the great workers that they are.

In our country, Labs probably feature quite heavily as scenting dogs in the police and customs. They get used at airports and mail centers. They also get used as evidence dogs. They are the first choice for guide dogs.

Beagles are used as food detection dogs. We have very strict quarantine here, as we don't have a lot of the plant diseases that are present in the rest of the world and don't want them. For this reason,we are really strict with food imprts.

spiritdogs

t any rate, I think it's wise always to call a spade a spade, and an electric impulse that causes pain is a punishment, not a marker, and is, as Kim so aptly put it, a try at "positivizing" something that is less than positive.

I am concerned that electric shocks are called stims to santify what they actually are. It is a good example of Dog World double speak. A bit like concentrating on the taste of a cigarette or the low nicotine level of it without stating that it is still going to kill you...

miranadobe

The e-collar on the low working levels is soooo far from that, it's ridiculous to assume they're an equivalent experience.  It's not even close to the jolt when you accidently touch an electrical outlet, either.

Actually, it can approach it. Electric fences are designed so that the shock is highly perceptable, but has a get away period and an obvious intuitive way of getting away from it. The pulses happen about once a second.Dogs learn quick to just stay away which they do. Generally, unless an animal gets caught in it, they live. Their safety is defined and they must have UL or CSA approavl in your end of the world. That includes certain safety features  so that of component failures happen , people and animals don't die and the unit won't catch fire. The energy or voltgage is so that long grass as well as your body can have a shock.

When you evaluate an e collar, check it when it is firmly strapped to your neck.. that is where it is on your dog. it makes a huge difference to the current that is delivered. Think that you have no idea what it is, in fact your body doesn't know about electric shock. Think that for many dogs, some klutz who has failed to train the dog at all well has resorted to one of these to get a quick answer and is controlling the thing.  I think it is much worse than an e fence under these circumstances. It is highly non contingent. It can't be stopped, the idiot driving it thinks the only stressed dog is a comatose one.. They are truely ugly under these circustances.

 Again, I truely believe that they need to be available as a "tool", but never ever as a primary training aid.

ron2

I'm not so "all-knowing" as to think I couldn't make a mistake with a lighter tool and assume that I must go to the next heavier tool.

I hope no one missed your very salient point.  Even a great trainer can have a lapse when it comes to timing, technique, etc.  The subtleties of body language can creep in.  Any one of a number of things can influence the progress we make with our dogs.  Whether you agree with the use of e-collars or not, this premise of always questioning one's own inadequacies is part of the best trainers' repertoire.  It is an important safeguard that keeps us from abusing the trust our dogs put in us.

I'm sure the other Aussie owners on the board would agree that, despite the fact that bite work is not usually included in their training, they certainly don't need any coaching in terms of work ethic;-)   But, the "working dog people" often forget the Labs, Goldens, Aussies, Border Collies, and, yes, Poodles, when they discuss heroic and important work that dogs do.  The search dog world is not populated solely by GSD's and Malinois.  I mean, how can you act macho with your search Poodle, right????  Yet, I've seen Poodles do this work, and some other fairly non-traditional work.  The idea that other breeds don't need testing or work, or to be adequately trained is just plain poppycock and egotistical nonsense.  A dog that is destined to perform the work for which it was bred, or even to perform non-traditional work still needs to be stable, operant, and physically sound, regardless of breed. 

poodleOwned and Anne, I was responding to the question "why do Schutzhund if you are not an LEO?"  I am not saying that GSDs are the *only* true working breed.  I am saying that the GSD breed was designed and purposely bred to be a versatile working breed.  I'm not commenting on other breeds or their abilities, nor am I attempting to compare or rank them against each other; I am making a statement about my breed and why I feel it is important that dogs of breeding stock have actually proved their worth as working dogs.  I have very little experience with the other breeds mentioned, I honestly have no idea how those fanciers determine drive and mental soundness or if those things even matter for breeding.  For GSDs, they do.  Schutzhund was originally designed to be a bred test for German Shepherd dogs, that is a fact.  Other breeds can and do excel.

poodleOwned

I still have major questions about Shutzhund tracking training and tracking with dogs trailing a bit, and the realtive effectiveness.

Not sure what the questions are but anyone doing SchH should admit that tracking is highly stylized, not the slightest bit practical.  It's more about training a behavior and then introducing situations in the environment that test the dog's drive and ability to independently work through stressors and roadblocks while maintaining the correct drive and behavior.  It is not intended to be SAR, HRD, air scenting, bomb or narc detection, etc.  Apples and oranges.

Liesje

Not sure what the questions are but anyone doing SchH should admit that tracking is highly stylized, not the slightest bit practical. 

Similar to  the way many field trial and hunt test retrievers are trained beyond the level that any real world hunter would ever need.   Not too many bird hunters can knock down a bird at 200 yards, in fact much beyond 50 yards is a pretty long shot for bird hunting.   In Field Trials it's common to see birds thrown at 200 yards.  You can have a great hunting dog who isn't trained to that level but the dog wouldn't get far in competition trials. Most hunters would never need an e collar to train a dog for their purposes and that's a good thing.

poodleOwned

When you evaluate an e collar, check it when it is firmly strapped to your neck.. that is where it is on your dog. it makes a huge difference to the current that is delivered.

First, I realize in your part of Australia (Victoria, right?), that ecollar use is restricted, and in most states throughout Australia they're either illegal or restricted, so perhaps this is primarily theory without application?  I don't want to assume, though - have you used an ecollar (NOT a bark collar, NOT an electronic fence?) and if so, what brands/models? 

As for placing it on my neck, seriously, it has been bantered around enough that the pain thresholds & general anatomy of nerves of dogs and humans are not equivalent.  However, to appease the histrionics of some, I can tell you I have put the collar on my own neck, and watched others do the same.  In all honesty, my experience at the same levels btwn my neck and hand were not significantly different.  But what is the point of asking my personal experience with it on my neck?  The implied message seems to be that I would blow my own head off if I felt it there, rather than my hand??  BTW, if people with theories really want to educate themselves, they would be aware that trainers have placed the ecollars on various positions on a dog for various reasons.  (Here's where I laugh at those "witnesses" to an ecollar seminar who claimed a trainer placed the collar on a dog's penis with the intention of cruelty.  Meanwhile, the dog in question was a female.  insert eye roll here.)

poodleOwned

Think that for many dogs, some klutz who has failed to train the dog at all well has resorted to one of these to get a quick answer and is controlling the thing.  I think it is much worse than an e fence under these circumstances.

ron2

I'm not so "all-knowing" as to think I couldn't make a mistake with a lighter tool and assume that I must go to the next heavier tool.

I can give you and example about why (even when i didnt go all the way to the haviest tool but i didnt start with a lighter tool either)

When i started walking Chuck back in the day i was introduced to his very normal Mal prey drive. The prey drive where he was going from 0 to 100 in less than 2 seconds. The same prey drive that could cause him to pull so hard so fast that my hand would loose the grip of the leash. It happened once, thank God it was around 10 pm in a really quiet neighborhood.

Once you have a Mal running free behind a rabbit there is no human power that will make him stop. At that moment is just him and the rabbit in the world, nothing else.

Thankfully he lost the rabbit out of sight in the dark of the night after i found him standing in a big open field.

If this could happen not at 10 pm but around 5 pm in a more busy street. Most likely Chuck would be now a road kill statistic. I could not afford to choose a "lighter tool" hoping that it would work because some people are afraid of hurting the dog's psyche. Every day that i was letting this uncontrolled prey drive happen was an extra day that i was allowing my dog to be at risk.

I didnt choose "watch me" or turn the other way, etc. No with the time window he was giving me to react. I choose to apply leash corrections. Today we can be walking and a rabbit can just jump out of nowhere from a bush and Chuck will ignore it. The technique i choose was faster to apply and was given faster results. I minimized his reaction and risk to less number of days that if i started with the lighter tool

That is only one example of why you can not always start with a lighter tool and work your way up if it does not work.