E-collar discussion

 I think that some dogs are more sensitive to touch than sound. I've heard it suggested that ALL dogs are more sensitive to touch than sound. The main reason why we use a sound marker rather than a touch marker is convenience and versatility. Kivi is a very touch sensitive dog and likes to be touched. The way I see it, using an e collar as a marker, an e collar is to touch marking what a clicker is to sound marking.

If they were more affordable, I'd get a vibrating collar for marker training, especially with Kivi as his head is often in the clouds and he seems particularly fond of touch. I also think it would help us shore up the last of the distractions he currently doesn't hear verbal instructions through. We will get there with sound alone, but I suspect it would be quicker with touch instead.

I don't really understand the point of conditioning a prong collar pop to be a marker. Why not just condition "Oi, keep up!" as a marker?

corvus

I don't really understand the point of conditioning a prong collar pop to be a marker. Why not just condition "Oi, keep up!" as a marker?

It works just as well, but then you could say vice versa.  As long as the imprinting is done correctly, why should it matter?  Anyway, I don't personally know anyone that uses a prong as a marker since that defeats the purpose of using an e-collar (something that can be used at a distance and creates no physical link to the handler), but I've heard of it being done.

miranadobe

spiritdogs

I think you are misunderstanding the use of markers.  A marker is an indicator,

 The ecollars are used as markers, too.  I don't think she was indicating a prong is used as a marker.

The beauty of the ecollar is that it is pretty versatile.  It can be a marker, it can be an aversive.  I don't see how an e-collar on vibrate is any less likely to malfunction than an e-collar on stim, particularly since both involve an electronic impulse to the collar.  Vibrating only collars are the same as far as the use of electricity to cause an action in the collar.

Meanwhile, I am not a fan of electronic bark collars, and worse the citronella collars.  THAT to me is a case where using other methods that may be more time consuming should be exhausted first, but I realize the practicality of needing immediate cessation NOW!  I have and will use my ecollar as an aversive, but not at the stim levels that a bark collar works on, and not on the automatic response rather than my own discretion using a remote.  Sorry, not to take it off topic, but I realize that aversive methods and electronic stimuli are the problems most people seem to have with ecollars. 

If a vibration collar malfunctions, the vibe keeps happening, which is annoying or disconcerting, but not painful.  Pain is not a "marker" it's an aversive, but I suppose you could call it a CS, the withdrawal of which constitutes a negative reinforcement which the dog learns to anticipate.  Semantics perhaps, but I hate how everyone wants to use euphemisms rather than calling it a painful stimulus, which, no matter how mild, it is.  Kids that hang around horse barns often tell other kids to touch a piece of grass to the e-fences just to see them get the little jolt.  Were they electrocuted, or writhing on the ground?  No, but was it painful?  Sure.  The first time I ever did it, no one would be able to convince me that it was just a tic, a stim, or a marker.  It hurt, and I have always been careful to only touch the insulated part of the fences since then!

I've never touched an e-fence but the first time I got a stim from an e-collar I did not feel it, had to concentrate on feeling it or have the next level to feel it.  I've been hit with AC a few times touching the wrong place when working with electronics, the collar stim came nowhere close and a carpet shock hurts me more than both of those things.  You say we have to call all stim pain but then use an example that is not even an e-collar.  I've never been comfortable with e-fences, to be honest, even for livestock.

ETA:  none of the links are working

spiritdogs

but I hate how everyone wants to use euphemisms rather than calling it a painful stimulus, which, no matter how mild, it is. 

I am completely perplexed by this.... it really makes me think you've never felt an e-collar on your hand at the low levels.  Have you?  Do you recall what brand it was, and what year?  ie, collars 20 years ago were HOT!  Collars in the last 10/15 are a different animal and pain is not in the equation at the low levels. A 4 or 5, I'd say that's pretty uncomfortable, painful even, fine.  But a 1/2 is nearly imperceptible (and completely imperceptible to many people), and a 1 feels like a bug ran across my hand.  Collars have an even wider range now, so the steps in intensity are much more gradual/subtle.

spiritdogs

Kids that hang around horse barns often tell other kids to touch a piece of grass to the e-fences just to see them get the little jolt. ....The first time I ever did it, no one would be able to convince me that it was just a tic, a stim, or a marker.  It hurt, and I have always been careful to only touch the insulated part of the fences since then!

Liesje

I've never touched an e-fence

 A bit OT, but I am confused about the prong being used as a marker.... if I had a dog lag behind or forge ahead, I wouldn't "click" (read, "mark";) that behaviour, because the marker says, "YES! - what you were doing then, at that second, is precisely what I want and why you are being rewarded "  As i don't want that behaviour repeated (lagging/forging), I won't mark at that moment, but rather only when the dog is in the correct position....

Anyway, I have zero experience with e-collars, but I'm interested in how they are used when used properly, so.... carry on

 Interesting thread!!

 I have always been against e-collars.  ..... until I did some research into them in the past year or so.

Now, I'm getting ready to buy one and use it as a training device for bird work.  Not to create pain or to hurt my dog, but to have a little control in situations where a dog is supposed to be working 50+ ft away from you.  Similar, I'd guess to ScH work.  You don't want a dog to learn to break away, once they catch a bird.... you have a heck of a time training them out of that.  It's easier (for both you AND the dog!) to make it clear from the first day out. 

Introduction to the e-collar I think the pivotal moment, from there it's how you want to train.  I would NEVER be cruel to my dog.  But, I guess that's the key here. People's idea of "moderation" can be so subjective that they can't even decide on how much is "proper" leg angle...... let alone how much juice to use while training.

My take on it is, used properly, the e-collar is a great tool.  Used improperly it is abuse.  In my opinion there is no gray area, but to some there obviously is.

Apparently no one read the links, or you would realize that I included one with a pretty complete description of someone testing an e-collar on herself.  Yes, I have felt them.  Innotek, Dogtra, DT Systems, etc. and not the old ones.  Of course it depends on the stimulation level how much pain is felt.  And, it depends which dog you use one on as to how the dogs perceive the stimulus.  I have seen dogs that don't care much about pain until it gets pretty severe, but I also know that some breeds or individual dogs are pain sensitive and will yelp even on a fairly low setting.  I know about the effects of an errors or malfunctions in terms of the dog's association of the stimulus with its handler - not something I want my dogs to associate with me, but I know others feel differently - or in making improper associations (such as the dog that won't go into the room where the correction took place). 

these discussions are rather like the abortion argument - the two sides, pro and con, don't ever come together.  I just want people to know that there can be quite a down side to the use of e-collars, and not to just blithely assume that they are innocuous.

spiritdogs

Apparently no one read the links,

Liesje

ETA:  none of the links are working

Liesje

corvus

I don't really understand the point of conditioning a prong collar pop to be a marker. Why not just condition "Oi, keep up!" as a marker?

It works just as well, but then you could say vice versa.  As long as the imprinting is done correctly, why should it matter?  Anyway, I don't personally know anyone that uses a prong as a marker since that defeats the purpose of using an e-collar (something that can be used at a distance and creates no physical link to the handler), but I've heard of it being done.

The way I see it, a prong or any other marker that is only going to work when you have your dog on leash is a bit wildly limited. I would never waste time training a marker that required my dog to be on leash when I could train a marker that could be used anywhere just as easily. It doesn't matter except in the versatility of it. I don't know about anyone else, but I like versatile markers, which is the reason why I mark Kivi with a sound and not a touch even though I think he would respond better to a touch. Maybe I'll train a touch marker for close work as well and see if I'm right.

I don't know that I'd be game to use an e collar over a vibration collar, but I'm excessively cautious about punishments.  

I did read the links Ann.  I had to copy and paste into my address bar but no biggie.  Good information that anyone contemplating using an e collar should read.

   I saw an enormous range of different reactions from different dogs when using e collars.  To me there are two major problems with using an e collar.  Timing is so critical and the correction comes instantly and I've seen many dogs corrected at the wrong moment who then were completely confused as to what they were being corrected for and the training takes a huge setback, not to mention the relationship with the handler/owner can suffer.  I've seen dogs that wouldn't get in the water after mistimed corrections or misunderstood corrections.  Dogs that won't pick up birds because they aren't sure why they were corrected on the way to the bird.   Dogs that bolted for the next county because the collar wasn't properly introduced and the owner thought they understood the directions included with the collar.

The other problem I've seen with people using e collars is that it's too easy to up the intensity in the hopes that you will get a better response or a faster response. Maybe you will but you might end up with a dog who is always anticipating the pain and isn't really learning anymore. The worst thing I've seen is that people are prone to frustration in training.  It's usually a  problem with their training methods or they haven't properly taught the dog what is wanted.  It's just too easy to hit that button and burn the dog when you are having a bad day training and you aren't communicating to the dog what he should be doing.

Competition brings out the best in some people and it brings out the worst in others.  My advice to anyone contemplating using an e collar is to get trained by a pro who knows what they are doing.  Never use an e collar just to make a training task easier or quicker.  Don't set goals that are unrealistic.  Training dogs takes time and it takes patience.  Too many people lack these two things and they want a tool that will speed up the whole process. They want to bypass the simple basics.  Or they have a dog not suited for the task but by gosh they will get that dog to perform.

 I don't meant to sound like some big time expert on collars, I'm not, but I trained with them at one time and saw many other people train with them. Big time pros and JQP and both groups of people can seriously screw up a dog with an e collar.  I do think they have a place in training with the right dog and the right person holding the transmitter.  Err on the side of caution.

I have a vast experience with ecollars and dogs trained on them. I live in an area where a certain somebody uses ecollars to work on everything imaginable, from straight-up obedience to serious behaviour issues, so I see them run the gamut. I don't like ecollar use in general, because I just don't think there is a huge need for the general pet-owning public.

That said, I've tested them immensely on myself, and I will agree that the first few levels don't really hurt in any way. However, I will also say that the dogs I see on a regular basis are generally always above those levels, as well. I've never seen a dog on a Dogtra collar, for instance, run at any of those low, painless levels. They are always at a level that I can either feel easily, cause a reflexive action in my hand, or downright hurt. So while the collars "have" those low levels, I have yet to see a dog that actually works at those levels, or in other words behaves at those levels.

I've heard of the idea of pairing a collar correction with a reward, and to be honest, it never really made much sense with me. You are either going to give a punishment, or you are not. You can't sugar-coat it, and trying to doesn't really "lessen" the effects of the punishment that much. It's kind of like giving a child a sucker after you slap it....doesn't really make sense, behaviourally or logically. If you are going to use a punishment, just use the punishment - don't try to sugar coat it into something it's not. It almost feels to me like folks are trying to "positivize" punishments by doing that, or make the punishment seem less severe, when really the punishment is still there.

Liesje, I don't know much about using it in the context in which you want to make it, because I've only ever heard of a marker being used with a vibration or tone from an ecollar, not actually a stim. I just think that while you can get there using an ecollar, you don't need it to get where you're going. I sayt hat because no police dogs that I have known or seen (in this area) ever wear ecollars to train distance work, and those types of dogs do a lot more stressful work with no room for error than schutzhund dogs, so for that I know it can be done. I almost wonder if it is being used because of the convenience issue? I really don't know, and I'm not saying it is, because I don't really know how it would play out. I'm just thinking here.

 Kim, I think that your point that the collars are unnecessary "to get where you're going" is a valid one.  I'm sorry I deleted the links before I read Jackie's post.  At any rate, I think it's wise always to call a spade a spade, and an electric impulse that causes pain is a punishment, not a marker, and is, as Kim so aptly put it, a try at "positivizing" something that is less than positive.

Kim_MacMillan

I've heard of the idea of pairing a collar correction with a reward, and to be honest, it never really made much sense with me. You are either going to give a punishment, or you are not. You can't sugar-coat it, and trying to doesn't really "lessen" the effects of the punishment that much.

 I tend to agree with this, at least in the arena of the prong.  In the case of the ecollar, if you set out to use it exclusively as a marker (like the vibrating collars), then it's not punishment, of course.

Kim_MacMillan

I sayt hat because no police dogs that I have known or seen (in this area) ever wear ecollars to train distance work, and those types of dogs do a lot more stressful work with no room for error than schutzhund dogs, so for that I know it can be done.

Makes me wonder what sort of methods those dogs in your area are being trained under, do you know?  I've seen a few dozen police dogs being trained using traditional methods (meaning no e-collars) that DO work very well under pressure (usually because it was applied earlier by their handler during training), but impart far more pain and punishment than most of us (I think) are comfortable with.  Oddly, though, I've watched a disconcerting number of the police dogs who are trained without traditional methods, and without ecollars, fail miserably at particularly stressful points in their jobs.  Could be the dog, could be the handler/dog relationship, could be the methods, the lack of understanding the dog's nerve/stress threshold, I don't know.

Kim_MacMillan

That said, I've tested them immensely on myself, and I will agree that the first few levels don't really hurt in any way. However, I will also say that the dogs I see on a regular basis are generally always above those levels, as well. I've never seen a dog on a Dogtra collar, for instance, run at any of those low, painless levels. They are always at a level that I can either feel easily, cause a reflexive action in my hand, or downright hurt. So while the collars "have" those low levels, I have yet to see a dog that actually works at those levels, or in other words behaves at those levels.

That's one of the reasons I stay away from the DogTra collars.... I don't think they have appropriate steps/levels for working.  Too weak, or too strong.  (Isn't there a beer commercial out right now like this??)  As a point of reference, G works on the TriTronics Sport 50 level 1, nick or continuous depending on the circumstances.  For distance recalls when she's off chasing something in the woods, I find the heightened distractions bump us up to a 2 nick if she doesn't respond on the first time.  For obedience distance recalls (ie, when we trained for the BH, 50+ ft) it was only a level 1.