E-collar discussion

Liesje

but he put the collar on my wrist (being a very sensitive area of the human body) and gave me the marker nick and had to ask him to do it again to even feel it.

The issue with people against it is that they actually think that the only level the collar has equals the level of a tazer or something like that. I havent use one but i'm not against it if you REALLY know how to use it

espencer

Liesje

but he put the collar on my wrist (being a very sensitive area of the human body) and gave me the marker nick and had to ask him to do it again to even feel it.

The issue with people against it is that they actually think that the only level the collar has equals the level of a tazer or something like that. I havent use one but i'm not against it if you REALLY know how to use it

Right, but I think that goes without saying.  I'm hoping we can talk about the e-collar assuming that I would never train or associate with anyone that uses it as their only tool and uses it primarly for harsh physical correction.  I don't own one yet myself so I'm not sure how "high" they go but I personally would have no problem if they were somehow capped as far as the level of stim the collar can even cause.  Most of the good quality ones also come with a vibration that is useful as a marker.

espencer

Liesje

but he put the collar on my wrist (being a very sensitive area of the human body) and gave me the marker nick and had to ask him to do it again to even feel it.

The issue with people against it is that they actually think that the only level the collar has equals the level of a tazer or something like that.

Someone else on this board recently posted that the shock of the collar is equivalent to be zapped by super megahertz.  I use a Tri-Tronics Sport 50 (oldie but goodie), and contacted Tri-Tronics for the specifics.  They advised: "The voltage runs on a 270 MHZ frequency.  The lower numbers would be below the 270 MHZ.  While I cannot give you specific output for each level as it differs with each unit, I hope this helps." - meaning that 270 is THE absolute MAX!  I don't know anyone who trains on the max, and I know at least 45 people personally who use ecollars.  My Sport 50 ranges from 1/2 to 5, with Nick and Continuous.  Each have their place and application, but I've NEVER gone above a 3 Continuous, except when my battery was dying and G didn't respond, so I went up to a 4 and realized my error...that the sucker wasn't receiving a signal whatsoever.

Lies - I use an e-collar on Gracie, and we train with a Balanced trainer.  She has a background in SchH, and she and her partner are currently training 4 or 5 of their dogs in SchH and French Ring.  When we trained for our BH, we also worked with a previous associate of hers, who preferred the prong for our training.  I found I got physically involved in ways I didn't like, as opposed to using the e-collar to get the same results without the bummed out look in G's face.  (Sharp fast Downs come to mind.)

I'll be trying the ecollar on the Border Collie mix I live with.  He's very sensitive and tunes out to his happy place, protests, resists, comes up the leash in defense mode, submissively urinates, etc, etc, so physical involvement with him needs to be kept at a minimum to keep his defense reactions from being triggered, from what I've experienced and what I've gotten for feedback from trusted trainers and behaviorists.  We'll see how things go.  From his past experience with it, he seems to take it as fair, and impersonal.  (Yet one of the trainers I consulted on him had the opposite experience with her drivey Dobe who gets pouty and resents the collar??  I don't know in what context she was using it, tho.)

Meanwhile, I'm picking a friend's brain about using the e-collar for forced retrieve on G next, since the friend's dogs learned to retrieve a great variety of items at lightning speeds.  Haven't started it yet - retrieves have been the bain of my personal feelings on pain training for at least 2 years now.  (I was never comfortable with traditional ear-pinch just in theory alone, and when I saw it applied to our dog besties and watched the dog zone out to her happy place, I decided I'd never want to do that to G.)  I saw the click to retrieve and tried it and got mediocre, inconsistent results.  I have no intention of nagging, bribing, begging G to retrieve.  Rewards are rewards, TONS of encouragement, which she will receive plenty of, but I just prefer the clarity of solid training with a tool like the ecollar.

I guess my only comment is that if the collar is really to be used *only* as a marker, then why would you not opt for a vibration collar, as people do for deaf dogs, rather than an e-collar that has the shock capability, which still, no matter how you want to rationalize its use, has the capacity for a malfunction to occur, regardless of the issue of misuse. 

and I've mentioned before I have used one with a remote for barking. I have never needed it more than 3-4 days when I attached a command to it. Timing is essential...crucial...when using a remote which is why I prefer it to the "on their own" anti bark collars. But I am home enough to use the remote version.

spiritdogs

I guess my only comment is that if the collar is really to be used *only* as a marker, then why would you not opt for a vibration collar, as people do for deaf dogs, rather than an e-collar that has the shock capability, which still, no matter how you want to rationalize its use, has the capacity for a malfunction to occur, regardless of the issue of misuse. 

Because it serves as a marker *and* replaces whatever other tool is being used (prong, fursaver, etc).  Also a good shock collar is very good quality.  The vibration collars I've seen just based on eyeballing them and their price come nowhere near the quality, plus they also contain batteries and remote which I suppose could malfunction as a standard e-collar would.  I think any tool can be misused or malfunction.  Honestly I have never heard of an e-collar accidentally shocking a dog and causing injury.  There are injuries (both human and canine) you hear of in the sport, but a shock collar injury is not one I've ever heard of.  I've known of dogs who have hung to death wearing standard flat collars, I have heard of abusive use of prong collars (like sharpened prongs, or making a dog's neck bleed...sick!!), my own dogs have gotten their tags or Fursavers hooked on their crate doors.  IMO a properly fitted, quality shock collar is probably the least likely to cause any sort of accidental injury or get snagged.

I hate e collar discussions. lol  I've used them and think they have a place in training for some dogs and some people.  I also believe that many people use them as shortcuts to speed up the process that could be done with different methods but might take a bit longer or maybe the dog won't be quite as sharp and speedy as the collar trained dog. That's not what this discussion is about so I'll not go any farther with that.

 I think using it in vibration mode as a marker for correct behavior is a good use.  I don't know enough about Sch work to comment on how or what behavior you would reward with an e collar vibration but I can see it's value.

I think you are misunderstanding the use of markers.  A marker is an indicator, not an aversive.  Prong collars are, by their nature, aversive, and are *not* markers.  And, if the e-collar is perceived as aversive by the dog, it isn't a marker either. 

The fact that other pieces of equipment have harmed dogs is irrelevant to whether an e-collar is harmless or not.

spiritdogs

I think you are misunderstanding the use of markers.  A marker is an indicator,

 The ecollars are used as markers, too.  I don't think she was indicating a prong is used as a marker.

The beauty of the ecollar is that it is pretty versatile.  It can be a marker, it can be an aversive.  I don't see how an e-collar on vibrate is any less likely to malfunction than an e-collar on stim, particularly since both involve an electronic impulse to the collar.  Vibrating only collars are the same as far as the use of electricity to cause an action in the collar.

Meanwhile, I am not a fan of electronic bark collars, and worse the citronella collars.  THAT to me is a case where using other methods that may be more time consuming should be exhausted first, but I realize the practicality of needing immediate cessation NOW!  I have and will use my ecollar as an aversive, but not at the stim levels that a bark collar works on, and not on the automatic response rather than my own discretion using a remote.  Sorry, not to take it off topic, but I realize that aversive methods and electronic stimuli are the problems most people seem to have with ecollars. 

This is a very interesting topic. Some of the most experienced people in my schH club use e-collar for a lot of things - sometime as a marker, sometime as a way to load the dog (make drive), sometime as an aversive. It's very fascinating how an experience trainer can take an aversive tool and a pain stimulus and manipulate it to mean different things to the dog.

Now on prong as marker - Obie's obedience instructor (who teaches agility and obedience and has no association with schutzhund) actually uses this as a teaching tool in heeling. She said the principle is the same. You can "load" the prong just like you load a marker. You prong the dog (very quick pop, nothing major, but it has to be a distinct pop) and you immediately give him a cookie. Do this about ten, twenty times and the dog is going to start associating the prong pop with food. This way when he is lagging you can pop the prong to get him to speed up and he is not going to interpret that as correction. Instead he is going to "drive" up to you because he expects a treat is coming. And for extra measure you give him one more pop when he is in the right position to get it into his mind that the prong is not a correction but rather a a marker and then you treat. When I told her it sounds a lot like how schH people load the dog with the whip (you "crack" them with the whip and then you let them bite. Do this enough time and the dog is going to start associating the whip with biting and the next time he gets hit with the whip he is going to get extra amped up because he knows the reward, i.e. the bite, is coming) she said "yea, it's the same idea. With the right timing and enough repetition, you can turn anything, even something negative like stim or a prong, into a positive for dog"

 A friend of mine who trains in SchH used an ecollar to correct one of her dogs for a few problems because the dog was very handler sensitive. The dog was a nice working dog who didn't have ideak foudnation work as a puppy. She became stressed if she was corrected by her owner but did not become stressed with an ecollar correction. The reason it can work as a correctional tool for softer dogs is because the dog does not associate it with the handler at all.

 I don't think tools should be judged based on misuse. Just about anything can be misused or has potential to accidently injure a dog, including a regular collar or leash. I have never used an ecollar but e-cbark collars are a part of life for several of my dogs. I can say that they don't develop any "fall out" behaviors that so many these days claim are certain to happen whenever aversives are used. They act perfectly normal with them on, except they are quiet :)

Actually I *have* seen prong collars used to give markers.  Jason is getting into that....just because a prong collar shuts down one dog does not mean it has the same effect on another...many times I have heard people say that their dog was afraid of the clicker at first, does that mean the clicker is not a marker?  Absolutely not.  Also just because a tool has various uses does not mean one cancels out the other.  You can use your voice to command, mark, give an NRM, praise reward, and correct...does that mean only one is "right"?  But you're right Paige that's not at all what I meant to say about prong collars.  I meant simply that *any* tool can "malfunction" or be misused, it goes without saying.  Like I said, I personally have never seen or even heard of an e-collar malfunctioning.  I'm not sure the relevance to discussion the techniques and methods behind the training itself.  If it needs to be said....for the purpose of this discussion lets assume that no tool "malfunctions"....

JackieG

 I think using it in vibration mode as a marker for correct behavior is a good use.  I don't know enough about Sch work to comment on how or what behavior you would reward with an e collar vibration but I can see it's value.

 

Distance work and anything in the protection phase.  Distance work would be running blinds, the send out, the out of motion exercises and recalls, possibly even tracking since you are 33' away.  Also useful in protection in various scenarios.  One being what I have already mentioned - when the helper/decoy is working his own dogs and cannot be using verbal praise in that context.  Another would be a dog (like my Nikon) that is very sensitive to handler praise or really anything verbal.  At present Nikon does his entire protection sessions with *no* verbal commands or corrections.  If I say "good boy!" with too much affirmation that is distracting for him.  Some dogs really need their handler patting them up and praising all the way but for some they have the right drive and nerve where that is not necessary and can even be distracting.  The "rewards" in the protection phase are unique (ie, we're not using toys, praise, food...or any traditional reward because this is a different state of mind for the dog, the rewards are the bites, the sleeve, guarding the sleeve, controlling the movement and position of the helper).

I loved my tone/vibration collar for my Border Collie who was obsessed with fences...jumping at them, jumping over them, trying to get through them.  I would use the tone as a warning, and a small vibrate as soon as she was within a foot or so of the fence.  It worked WONDERS.  After only a few weeks of serious fence work, and 3 months of wearing it and only using it occasionally, she no longer needed it.  The reason I chose to use it with her was that I worked with frisbee and agility with her, and she LOVED to jump!

I am considering using my tone/vibrate collar again with Ruby only because she has a super serious case of obsessing over other dogs.  She just wants to be their friend so badly, and I need to make sure we work on our "look here" command with it so that she will pay attention to me and we can divert her from friends!  She is so cute when she sees other dogs, she shakes, whimpers, and just loves them, but what she doesn't realize is that even though she is a pitbull, other dogs (even the cute little ones) are not as nice as her!  I don't want her puppy exhuberance getting her bitten.  So I'm planning on warning her with a tone to tell her to "settle"...and the once she settles to "look here" and if she does not or starts to wander towards the other dog I will give her a small vibrate.

She loves the dog park, and of course we would never use it there...but often times our neighbors dogs come over into our yard and I always get scared and would like to feel I have a bit more control over her.  I'm a big wimp when it comes to electric shock. I don't see anything wrong with it, but I know it would never work for me b/c I wouldn't follow through with the training thinking it was mean.  I know many many people who have had awesome success in hunting training...but I only have experience with the tone/vibrate collars.