Over-eager

 Don't get me wrong, I'm not dissing the U-turn method in general. It's not something I would never use. I just don't think it would be right for Kivi in this particular situation and huski is just going to have to accept that. I've explained repeatedly why I feel this way and I'm not really sure why she's still arguing the point because I'm obviously not going to change my mind about it.

Huski is also going to have to accept that I believe the current method is working. I'm not really sure why she insists on arguing that point either, seeing as I'm the only one here that can say for sure if I think it has helped and I've already said I think it has. I have had some good suggestions for how to improve what I'm doing and I think that strengthening Kivi's heel so it's as reliable as his sit is a really sensible place to start and a good solution to my over-eager release problem. I've been leaning on the sit to bring him back over the line and capable of listening to me, and it has worked very well. I just need to now work on maintaining that control after I release him.

I think that huski and I are going to have to agree to disagree. It's kind of pointless to argue with someone you don't know over whether a method you haven't seen in action is working on a dog you don't know in a situation you've never seen.

But a big thanks to the people that have made suggestions and declined to argue with me over my reasons for choosing to implement them or not. 

corvus

 Don't get me wrong, I'm not dissing the U-turn method in general. It's not something I would never use. I just don't think it would be right for Kivi in this particular situation and huski is just going to have to accept that. I've explained repeatedly why I feel this way and I'm not really sure why she's still arguing the point because I'm obviously not going to change my mind about it.

Huski is also going to have to accept that I believe the current method is working. I'm not really sure why she insists on arguing that point either, seeing as I'm the only one here that can say for sure if I think it has helped and I've already said I think it has. I have had some good suggestions for how to improve what I'm doing and I think that strengthening Kivi's heel so it's as reliable as his sit is a really sensible place to start and a good solution to my over-eager release problem. I've been leaning on the sit to bring him back over the line and capable of listening to me, and it has worked very well. I just need to now work on maintaining that control after I release him.

I think that huski and I are going to have to agree to disagree. It's kind of pointless to argue with someone you don't know over whether a method you haven't seen in action is working on a dog you don't know in a situation you've never seen.

But a big thanks to the people that have made suggestions and declined to argue with me over my reasons for choosing to implement them or not. 

Don't get me wrong Corvus. I couldn't care less if you use the method or not, what I do care about, is your evident lack of understanding as to why it would and wouldn't work (in general). I would never say what is best for a dog I've never met before, but I will continue to post to clear up apparent misgivings you have about how certain methods work.

You're the one who posted for advice, because you are having problems, what is the point in anyone giving you advice when you don't want to change what you are doing (irregardless of the method suggested) because you believe it already works. If it works and is working well, why are you having a problem? If you are just going to shut down any suggestions given to you and refuse to do anything other than what you are doing now, why bother in the first place?

huski

So, you think that no matter how far you walked in the opposite direction he'd never get over his frustration and you'd not be able to get any control or focus back?

I never said that. Huski, can you please try to understand this or leave it. It's not about you, or the method, it's just about my policy to not create a situation that is harder to deal with than the situation we are currently in. That is the last I'm saying about it. If you feel the need to pursue it more, please PM me. I've already shared how I'm going to change what I'm doing thanks to the suggestions here, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't fly off the handle and accuse me of arguing with or disregarding everyone's suggestions when I am clearly not doing that. You weren't the only one that made a suggestion, huski.

huski

But surely there are times when he will have to walk by other dogs without greeting them, dogs he wants to meet, wouldn't it be better to teach him not to get that frustrated and excited to the point where he is physically hard to manage? Aren't you setting him up for failure by not equipping him with the ability to be able to control himself?

The sit IS equipping him with the ability to control himself and has done a good job at that so far. My concern is that the RELEASE is becoming a cue to lose control. I think working on his heel will help us a lot here as it's already very strong and won't take much work to get as strong as the sit, which currently works at this excitement level. I also think the suggestion to do a little more work on his stay is a good one, and I think I'll also practice releasing him around lower distractions to try to remind him that the release doesn't require him to rush off. I have no grudge against the U-turn, and I understand how and why it works. It just ain't for us right now. Not really sure why that's not the end of the story.

Anyway, it's early days and we've only been at it a few weeks and only opportunistically. If I don't see further improvements I'll assume I was wrong and Kivi does need more distance. No biggy. Just means I have to get off my butt and plan for our walks to take longer.

My concern is that the RELEASE is becoming a cue to lose control.

If I were you, I'd be concerned that you can't walk him away from a dog he is excited about without him losing control and 'tipping him over the edge'. Obviously though we have very different ideas as to what constitutes appropriate and desirable behaviour. I was merely trying to give a suggestion, Corvus, forgive me for forgetting that I can't post anything without you challenging everything I write ;) I would have had no need to continue posting if you hadn't jumped on everything I suggested. I was simply trying to clarify my point.  Next time I will try not to bother.

huski

I don't believe for a second that my dogs look at every random dog we pass in the street as a new or potential pack member. I don't think that a random dog my dog sniffs and says hello to has automatically become a member of her pack. I don't believe packs are fixed either in terms of pack structure, IMO packs are fluid but I don't agree this means that dogs consider each dog they come across as a pack member nor that she has more value for a strange dog she met 30 seconds ago than she does for me.

Oh well, there is only one small part i agree with, and you will just have to guess which part as unlike Corvus i see no point in a testy dialogue with you that has nearly no chance of expanding my knowledge of dogs but a high chance of just p*****ng me off.

The hint it that it isn't about belief it is about fact.

corvus

My concern is that the RELEASE is becoming a cue to lose control.

Hi

I guess that i would re-teach sit. I teach sit as a sit mantain behaviour, which means that until i give another command sit. I would not give a release. I use a hang around me command which i teach as a game, which dogs love. It aint a heel, just hang around me. It is highly rewarded, literally gobs full of food or play in the early stages. A stand is not a good option, most dogs find it a little uncomfortable. I prefer hang around to LLW. I hardly use leads.

poodleOwned

huski

I don't believe for a second that my dogs look at every random dog we pass in the street as a new or potential pack member. I don't think that a random dog my dog sniffs and says hello to has automatically become a member of her pack. I don't believe packs are fixed either in terms of pack structure, IMO packs are fluid but I don't agree this means that dogs consider each dog they come across as a pack member nor that she has more value for a strange dog she met 30 seconds ago than she does for me.

 

Oh well, there is only one small part i agree with, and you will just have to guess which part as unlike Corvus i see no point in a testy dialogue with you that has nearly no chance of expanding my knowledge of dogs but a high chance of just p*****ng me off.

The hint it that it isn't about belief it is about fact.

 

My apologies for not agreeing with you on every aspect of dog training and behaviour. I'm sure the only way to train any dog is your way, after all.

Perhaps I should tell my friendly and well socialised dog, who often shows no interest in other dogs, that she should actually be jumping at the end of the leash to greet her new pack members

I have just recieved this correspondence from Huski and wish to publicise it.

I wish that other members who wish to talk to me in this way do it via the forum not via personal emails.I do not know who Huski is and more importantly do not wish to. It is NOT the way to develop a debate on dog training. It is the way to make sure that i don't contribute here.

Here is Huski's letter....

  "Of course, as i have seen time and time again  ***** (and i don't know her),everything you believe is fact not opiion.My apologies for not agreeing with you on every aspect of dog training and behaviour. I am sure that that the only way to train a dog is your way, after all."

 Huski used my first name and has no right to do so.

On the record, while i am a ecclectic positive trainer, i am also a democratic kind of person. Within reason i support the personal right of trainers to make  reasonable decisions to use  methods that are often outside what i am comfortable with. In my training career of just a little over a decade i can say that my rights to do the same have often been impinged, (to use toys, play and food). Just recently i had my right to use a mild time out impinged on. I would also ask that my anonymity on this board also be kept.

I

poodleOwned

I have just recieved this correspondence from Huski and wish to publicise it.

I wish that other members who wish to talk to me in this way do it via the forum not via personal emails.I do not know who Huski is and more importantly do not wish to. It is NOT the way to develop a debate on dog training. It is the way to make sure that i don't contribute here.

Here is Huski's letter....

  "Of course, as i have seen time and time again  ***** (and i don't know her),everything you believe is fact not opiion.My apologies for not agreeing with you on every aspect of dog training and behaviour. I am sure that that the only way to train a dog is your way, after all."

 Huski used my first name and has no right to do so.

On the record, while i am a ecclectic positive trainer, i am also a democratic kind of person. Within reason i support the personal right of trainers to make  reasonable decisions to use  methods that are often outside what i am comfortable with. In my training career of just a little over a decade i can say that my rights to do the same have often been impinged, (to use toys, play and food). Just recently i had my right to use a mild time out impinged on. I would also ask that my anonymity on this board also be kept.

 

I

 

 

What?? I didn't send you a letter, poodleowned. I posted that here in this thread. I edited to sound less snarky. That's not a letter you received, it's an automatic notification generated by this forum to notify you that this thread had a new post and obviously it sent my (now edited, which I did almost within a second of posting my reply) post as part of that. I have not sent you any private correspondance. Take a look at the post above yours and you can see that it's exactly the same as the text you just posted, bar the first sentence which I posted but then decided to edit out.

If you want to keep your anonymity, then maybe you should remove the pedigree names of your dogs from your signature. Obviously you don't value your privacy that much? BTW - I know your name because it's a past username of yours. And IIRC, I have used your first name on this forum before, and you didn't have a problem with it then?

Corvus, I just wanted to apologize for where your post has gone. It was a great resource for folks who are having problems with impulse control with their dog-friendly dogs, but unfortunately it has turned out poorly. Hopefully it can return to the original point of the post.

Hi All

I do apologise for my part. You wont understand the undertone unless you are here.

My first dog for obedience was a Labrador. He was like Marley in the book. His impulse control was nealy zero until i got onto clicker training and went up a huge learning curve. What i have said in these posts  i have done

 I will give you  a few instances with people and dogs. I am taking a risk saying this stuff because it shows me as the learning trainer that i was then and to some extent am now.It is very easy to judge if you haven't been there... trust me if you have you will have a laugh.

Cadbury got his CD in three, but in order to do so, i hd to let him say hello to the judge at the begining as he  wouldn't go any where unless he had said hello to the judge, So i just used to accidentally drop my lead at the starting post, he would say hello and of we went.

He got his CDX in five, which corresponded to me learning drive . He would quite happily do the whole thing on his own he was so charged, it took some effort to do it with me:))

We tried UD but failed because he couldn't handle the jumps. But oh the fun. There was the kid with the icecream, the judge with the dobe, the run with the rottie on an OC, the treat box dissaperance.

There are some further excercises that i used to teach impulse control, but i am slighly hesitant. Anxiety is often a companion of poor impulse control, a feeling that right now that action is better than the one asked for. If there is a a large element of anxiety then the path is different.  In real life i can judge this, but on a forum i can't. Just becuae an excercise looks R+ it may not be for a particular dog.

My dog had huge drive, and very high frustration levels.

One excercise i did with him was to set up two strange people about 1 meter apart, and then after succes with this a marrow bone some 10 meters downward.  We would walk towards the people and if he kept in heel, I would release him to the people. Lesson for dog, to get to the people you need to ignore them. after several goes he would let me know verbally that he was ignoring soemthing just in case i missed it.

After several shots at this, i would then get  someone to put a marrow bone down 10 meters away from the people. So he learnt to ignore the people and heel nicely to the bone. To be honest after a few shots at this he was one of the few dogs that walked into the ring on a loose lead.

huski

know your name because it's a past username of yours. And IIRC, I have used your first name on this forum before, and you didn't have a problem with it then?

Actually i did. I just kept quiet about it. I found it to be a sort of rude false familiarity.

I privately mentioned it to another forum member.

I am sure that you will respect my wishes and not use it again.

Personally, I need to separate training/focus work/working and being social.  For me (especially with Nikon), it just doesn't work to combine the two.  Either we are working on heeling, sitting, maintaining focus OR we are being social with other dogs.  Like I said earlier, I won't heel my dog toward another dog and ask for sits and focus because 1) another dog must be interpreted as a neutral object, not a high value reward and 2) working with a dog that has a high level of drive and some control issues, ALL rewards come from ME and me only (the only exception being if I release the dog to retrieve and object which *I* already placed somewhere and the dog saw me place it, and food on an aged track [but the dog gets to play ball with me at the end]).  No releasing to run to another dog. It just doesn't work that way for me.  I want my dogs to have social time with other dogs where they are free to just be a dog.  I also want there to be formal training times where we are very focused and working hard.  I cannot introduce Nikon to another dog during a training session because of the level of drive we create for training.  It's just not fair to the dog, bottom line.

Personally, I would just keep Kivi away from other dogs while you are training.  If you are not training, just doing an informal walk or whatever, by all means let him greet other dogs (so long as the other dog and owner are receptive). 

 I really was finding this thread very helpful for me. Even in helping me realise that I felt one method would make my problem worse rather than better.

pO, my "heel" command is actually "hang about". I don't need a formal heel with the dogs and haven't trained one, but "hang about" means come walk by my side. They can pick which side, just the closest one. It was designed to be used off leash when things like motorbikes were around. It was something I wish I'd trained with my last dog. Anyway, I've rewarded it heavily and it's pretty good. This morning Kivi was surprised by a dog getting out of a car behind him and went from lazy ambling to trying to lunge in a millisecond. Between sits and hang abouts we managed the situation with only a little pulling, despite the other dog flipping out, and that's what I'm aiming for in the end. I was really pleased that a) my hang about was stronger than I thought it was and b) Kivi only lost control for that first millisecond and for the rest of the time he was excited, but listening and most importantly doing as I asked. I think that's a pretty big improvement and I'm impressed with him.

Anyway, I think we might also teach him the jazz up and chill game to help him switch from excited to chilled quickly. It dawned on me after a trip to the dog park last night where Kivi was as attentive as I could ever dream a social dog could be in a dog park full of dogs that Kivi's problem is essentially a touch of leash reactivity. It was probably obvious, but sometimes I'm slow!

corvus

t dawned on me after a trip to the dog park last night where Kivi was as attentive as I could ever dream a social dog could be in a dog park full of dogs that Kivi's problem is essentially a touch of leash reactivity. It was probably obvious, but sometimes I'm slow!

Hi 

Oh yes. My very social older girl can be  a little tyrant in three places, on a lead, in her working space and if Sam has something of hers.

You can really drop the heat of these places with a little management. Blocking is great. So your dog is sitting, release your dog while you are standing in front and slowly move to the side.

Block the view, use you hand over the eyes and when you get a startled look, reward for the attention back at you.

Use a startling word,(tone rather than word is important) and again reward  when you get the look.

You can play Chris Bach's sea sick game , but IMHO don't try unless you already have pretty good attention.

I guess that one of the "little dog " issues is that people crowd her without meaning to.  They bring their dogs up way to close, invade my space and really get in hers. It can be tough keeping her cool and calm in these situations.