Over-eager

I think that it is very difficult to tell what is happening on a forum, and it is probably too high level. What i fear most of all is a dog that is motivated by nothing. I once had the displeasure of teaching an overfed american bulldog to track and basically all that is was vaguely interested in was the movement of some ducks in the distance. It learnt to track but it was so slow...

 This is one reason why i prefer to develop things that a dog is interested in rather than neutralise them. It is certainly possible to not cross instincive behaviours and develop a near neutral relationship with other people, but in many dogs a neutral relationship with other dogs can cross instinctive behaviours and can be coutner productive, sometimes even dangerous.

One of the ways of reducing "value" (i hate this word a bit , it gives the wrong sense to reinforcement) is to go the other way to expose and to socialise in a controlled fashion, habituation if you like. The effects are pretty well documented. When my dogs play, they need to check in with me, and do small behaviours during the play or else the play stops. I think that this process is where a lot of problems start. Socialisation is not good if it is some mad free for all where timid dogs get more timid, and bullies get reinforced. Play is a reward for completing a behaviour that i ask for, it is contingent on rapid compeltion of behaviours that i ask for during play.

I know that my breed is partcually owner orientated, but my dogs have learnt that even people that are in their close circle,such as their breeder, my wife, Luci's very favourite ex handler are to be ignored while she is working with me. I don't do it by neutralisation, but by habituation and premacking and preventing self rewards. Sam is happily learning this too. I still have the reward value of these people.I find that the proofing doing this is very drive enhancing.

My old Lab was a doggy social  butteryfly too. Again we used the same process. I could work him around other dogs and people, but when re-cued he made a great therapy dog for adolescents with Pysh troubles. He had no trouble initating play or affection and could walk away if things got too rough.

 

 

 

 

corvus

 The problem is not so much that he doesn't listen to me as that he's anticipating the release. I guess this is premack, because if he sits nicely he gets to greet the dog, but the problem is he sits nicely enough, waits to be told he can go, then rushes to claim his reward.

I had a similar problem with Kirby, largely impart because I made a major goof originally when teaching stay.  Initially I always rewarded after the release... looking back it was a big durrr moment, since I should have been rewarding while he was in the stay and reinforcing the wanted behavior instead of hyping the release. 

Now since you are greeting dogs it is a lot harder to reward during the behavior.  Still I know Kivi is a very confident social guy so perhaps to wear down the long run to the other dog you could have him in a sit stay and have the other owner bring their dog to him while he remains seated, only releasing once they arrive.  Thus it is more like the sit is getting him something because sitting causes the other dog to move toward him.  If he breaks the sit you could ask the person polity to stop for a second until you can get his bum back on the ground.  Another thing I have found to help keep dogs from anticipating to greatly the release is I might mix things up and ask for a down or other trained behavior before releasing.  Since he knows heel perhaps instead of releasing to see the dog once he is in a focused sit you could ask for the heel and then make your way toward the dog. 

It could also be he needs a little refresher course that being released from a stay does not mean he is allowed to pull, lunge or do any other unacceptable behaviors in his eagerness to get over to greet.  Perhaps if you release and the line goes taut do a quick u turn till you refoces him than start back toward the dog.  Since it is such a reward for him to visit I'm sure once he relizes pulling means you immediatly turn away from the dog he will start to catch on.

Krissim Klaw

Since it is such a reward for him to visit I'm sure once he relizes pulling means you immediatly turn away from the dog he will start to catch on.

 

Haha, you'd think that, wouldn't you? Unfortunately, Kivi Tarro was apparently hiding behind the door when that spitz intellect was being given out.  

No, that's not giving him credit where credit is due. He doesn't cope very well with frustration. I'm loathe to try U-turns because I can imagine what he would do. He would get even MORE worked up and it would be a step backwards. I think he'd get there in the end, but when I have other things that would not be a step backwards to try, there's no need for me to go to U-turns yet. I think that he would come good with the heeling if I try that, though. At the moment when the leash goes taut I ask for another sit and that seems to slow him down and work eventually, but it doesn't feel like it's really treating the problem to me.

PO, off leash Kivi is very good. He checks in whenever his name is called, he checks in just for the hell of it, and it's not very hard to get him focused. He'll do anything I ask at the dog park even when it's chock full of other dogs having fun. Sometimes he is very wired when he goes to the park and he doesn't get let off until he can sit on command and wait for me to let him off, and then I usually call him before he gets too fixated and just races off. His off leash behaviour around other dogs is pretty sensible and I'm quite happy with it. It's just on leash that he has trouble. And I think you're right, the excitement level is a little too high. I guess that this is a lesson for me that I should have approached on leash behaviour the same way as I approached off leash behaviour. I think a large part of my problem is that he can predict what is going to happen. Perhaps I need to try to introduce some more variation into our on leash approaches and ask for different things, like KK has suggested.

Huski, his focus on me when I ask for a sit in the face of high levels of excitement and frustration is, understandably, barely existant! I'm kinda surprised I can get a sit out of him, let alone repeatedly and maybe even a heel if I'm lucky. He has his ear out for me, but that's all. Like I said, I think U-turns will make it worse before they make it better. It would be nice if people were more predictable with their dogs.

Thanks for all the suggestions, guys. It's got my brain into gear and thinking about the problem in a bit more depth. It's pretty managable now, but not something I'm happy to manage. 

corvus

No, that's not giving him credit where credit is due. He doesn't cope very well with frustration. I'm loathe to try U-turns because I can imagine what he would do. He would get even MORE worked up and it would be a step backwards. I think he'd get there in the end, but when I have other things that would not be a step backwards to try, there's no need for me to go to U-turns yet. I think that he would come good with the heeling if I try that, though. At the moment when the leash goes taut I ask for another sit and that seems to slow him down and work eventually, but it doesn't feel like it's really treating the problem to me.

 

Why do you think it would make him more worked up? The point (at least, the way I use it) is that you turn around and walk away until the dog calms down - out of that critical distance/threshold - so you can get his focus back on you and not on the other dog. There would be a point for Kivi where he gets close enough to another dog that it makes him excited and too excited to focus much on you. Instead of fighting for his attention when he's at this point, I would suggest turning around and walking him away until he's at a point where he is calmer, and you are able to get his focus back, and go from there.

The other thing I'd be doing when you take him to the park or have him on leash near another dog is not just ask him to sit when he is wired up but get him looking at and focusing on you and not the other dogs before you release him.

Huski, his focus on me when I ask for a sit in the face of high levels of excitement and frustration is, understandably, barely existant! I'm kinda surprised I can get a sit out of him, let alone repeatedly and maybe even a heel if I'm lucky. He has his ear out for me, but that's all. Like I said, I think U-turns will make it worse before they make it better.

If it were me I'd be doing lots of focus exercises/games and working on getting him excited about focusing on me around other dogs - and work on decreasing the distance it takes him to start getting highly aroused and frustrated about getting to another dog.

huski

Why do you think it would make him more worked up? The point (at least, the way I use it) is that you turn around and walk away until the dog calms down - out of that critical distance/threshold - so you can get his focus back on you and not on the other dog. There would be a point for Kivi where he gets close enough to another dog that it makes him excited and too excited to focus much on you. Instead of fighting for his attention when he's at this point, I would suggest turning around and walking him away until he's at a point where he is calmer, and you are able to get his focus back, and go from there.

 

Because he will calm down faster if I just ask for a sit and never release than if I actually tried to take him away from the dog. As long as he's in a sit, there's still hope he'll get to talk to the other dog. He can keep it together. If I walked away, his frustration would go through the roof and I'd have a Lapphund bouncing and lunging and barking and that's a good deal worse than a Lapphund sitting and waiting eagerly for release.

I don't really agree that there's a critical distance. It's a matter of what he judges his chances of getting to greet the dog. He can approach a dog walking towards him in a pretty calm state, even when the dog is almost but not quite within nose range. But if the dog is on the other side of the road, he'll be at his worst no matter how close or far or which direction they are going in. If he knows there's a dog behind us, it doesn't necessarily matter if the dog is twenty metres behind us or a block behind us and he can't even see it anymore, he will be looking over his shoulder and not paying attention. If the dog is in front walking away from him, well, it depends on his mood. Sometimes he will barely care and sometimes he'll be trying to plow over there. Again, no pattern in distance. So if I walk him away from the dog (which I did for Angus the other day simply because we were going the opposite direction and Angus was on the other side of the road), he's looking behind his shoulder and dragging the chain well after he can't even see the dog anymore.   

I'm more concerned about accidentally teaching a "go run off out of control" release command than working on Kivi's focus. We are working on focus anyway, but we were before he started anticipating the release. It's going slowly in that I haven't been able to get it on cue, but he's pretty good at standing practically on top of me and glueing his nose to my thigh. It's not going to cut it in this situation for a while. I can totally get it at the dog park full of dogs, and I can get it on leash in any other situation, including when there are birds to chase and poo to eat, just not with dogs on leash. It seems to be our Archilles heel at the moment. That and cats. And starting rowdy wrestling games with Erik on walks is proving a challenging thing to compete with, but I can still get his attention and have him come to heel. Kivi's training is at the point where there are only a few distractions left that are big enough to cause us trouble.

corvus

Because he will calm down faster if I just ask for a sit and never release than if I actually tried to take him away from the dog. As long as he's in a sit, there's still hope he'll get to talk to the other dog. He can keep it together. If I walked away, his frustration would go through the roof and I'd have a Lapphund bouncing and lunging and barking and that's a good deal worse than a Lapphund sitting and waiting eagerly for release.

So basically, he'll chuck a tanty if he knows he isn't going to get his own way? That he can keep it together if he knows that he is going to get his own way and thinks he will still get to greet the other dog wouldn't mean much to me, if it were my dog, and would be telling me the opposite the dog is calm. In fact - I'd see that as a pretty serious issue. That he's that frustrated and zoned in on the other dog that he'd carry on if he thinks he won't get to greet it would reinforce (to me) that I need to break his focus on the other dog.

Micha never used to easily walk away from a dog that was riling him up. He'd still turn back towards it and want to attack it, but I'd continue to walk him away until he'd calmed down and I could get some focus back, which was a better option to me than asking him to sit or fighting to get him to focus on me when he was too close to the other dog to be able to listen and focus easily. That he still "carried on" when we turned around didn't tell me that turning him around and walking him away was the wrong thing to do, because once I'd put enough distance between him and the other dog I could get him to calm down and focus back on me.


Earlier you said that you don't always let him greet every dog you come across, but here you've said you don't like to walk him away from a dog he is interested in because he'll carry on. What do you do when he gets beside himself to greet another dog and you can't walk away from it for fear he's going to lunge bark and carry on?  

I don't really agree that there's a critical distance. It's a matter of what he judges his chances of getting to greet the dog. He can approach a dog walking towards him in a pretty calm state, even when the dog is almost but not quite within nose range. But if the dog is on the other side of the road, he'll be at his worst no matter how close or far or which direction they are going in. If he knows there's a dog behind us, it doesn't necessarily matter if the dog is twenty metres behind us or a block behind us and he can't even see it anymore, he will be looking over his shoulder and not paying attention. If the dog is in front walking away from him, well, it depends on his mood. Sometimes he will barely care and sometimes he'll be trying to plow over there. Again, no pattern in distance. So if I walk him away from the dog (which I did for Angus the other day simply because we were going the opposite direction and Angus was on the other side of the road), he's looking behind his shoulder and dragging the chain well after he can't even see the dog anymore.  

Micha has never reacted to every dog he came across, either. But his threshold towards other dogs was obvious when it was the type of dog who'd rile him up. When it came to being able to control him and teach him there were other ways to deal with these dogs apart from aggression, the distance he could be to these dogs before reacting to them was a key part of the training I did with him. Being able to decrease the distance to these dogs and have him be able to get closer without reacting to them was hugely important.


All Kivi's behaviour towards Angus would tell me is that he has a low threshold when it comes to dogs that excite him, not that there's no critical distance. Critical distance just refers to how far away you'd have to walk Kivi from a dog he's reacting to before you can regain some control and focus.

I'm more concerned about accidentally teaching a "go run off out of control" release command than working on Kivi's focus. We are working on focus anyway, but we were before he started anticipating the release. It's going slowly in that I haven't been able to get it on cue, but he's pretty good at standing practically on top of me and glueing his nose to my thigh. It's not going to cut it in this situation for a while. I can totally get it at the dog park full of dogs, and I can get it on leash in any other situation, including when there are birds to chase and poo to eat, just not with dogs on leash. It seems to be our Archilles heel at the moment. That and cats. And starting rowdy wrestling games with Erik on walks is proving a challenging thing to compete with, but I can still get his attention and have him come to heel. Kivi's training is at the point where there are only a few distractions left that are big enough to cause us trouble.

Maybe it's easier at the dog park because he's already free to mingle with other dogs and there's no build up like there is when he spots another dog and gets to zone in on it, because he's already running around with other dogs having a good time.


Either way, for walking I always find having a good solid 'look' or 'heel' command useful. I like being able to give my dog a command that means 'all eyes on me'. I practice this a lot on our walks and for me (with Daisy as well as with Micha) I found it made a difference if I started off a fair distance from distractions like other dogs and then, when the dogs were working well, slowly decreased that distance to the point where I can now walk directly past other dogs, command Daisy to look or heel and have her come to heel position with total focus on me.

 

(btw - meant to post this last night, but I had trouble accessing the forum for some reason).

huski

So basically, he'll chuck a tanty if he knows he isn't going to get his own way? That he can keep it together if he knows that he is going to get his own way and thinks he will still get to greet the other dog wouldn't mean much to me, if it were my dog, and would be telling me the opposite the dog is calm. In fact - I'd see that as a pretty serious issue.

I don't really understand exactly what you're saying here. Is he calm or frustrated and zoned out? He's not both. I think as long as he thinks he might get to greet the other dog he is very excited, but it's under control. It's a borderline affair. I'm not really interested in deliberately pushing him over that line so that it's no longer under control. I don't think that would be helpful for a dog like Kivi. Erik, maybe, but not Kivi.

huski

That he still "carried on" when we turned around didn't tell me that turning him around and walking him away was the wrong thing to do, because once I'd put enough distance between him and the other dog I could get him to calm down and focus back on me.

Okay, that's how you operate. That's fine. It's not how I operate. I really don't see why I would make him lose what focus he has when I don't need to. It's there, just tenuous. Pushing him over the edge so he loses it seems like a step backwards to me. The difference here is that Kivi isn't carrying on before I turn him around. He's in control and he's capable of doing at least one thing I ask.

What do you do when he gets beside himself to greet another dog and you can't walk away from it for fear he's going to lunge bark and carry on?

I think you're imagining a different scenario to the one I'm experiencing. If he's beside himself to greet another dog it doesn't matter what I do because I've already lost him, haven't I? However, at the moment, I would say it's taking about 5 seconds to go from lunging to sitting. Kivi is low drive. This is as bad as he gets. No need to walk him away when I only have to wait it out for a few seconds. It's not fear that's driving my decisions here, huski, just lazyness. Why walk away with my dog and end up physically fighting with him as well as fighting for his focus when I can stand still for 5 seconds and achieve the same thing without the fight?

Micha has never reacted to every dog he came across, either. But his threshold towards other dogs was obvious when it was the type of dog who'd rile him up. When it came to being able to control him and teach him there were other ways to deal with these dogs apart from aggression, the distance he could be to these dogs before reacting to them was a key part of the training I did with him. Being able to decrease the distance to these dogs and have him be able to get closer without reacting to them was hugely important.

Yes, but we're not talking about the same dog or the same problem. Kivi's threshold is also obvious: he walks on a loose leash or he starts to pull! Critical distance does not just refer to how far away I'd have to walk to regain control. It refers to how close I'd need to get to the dog before he reacts. I'm saying distance is not the critical factor. His ears might perk up if he so much as hears another dog. But I'm okay with that. I'm okay with him reacting to dogs. I just don't want to wind him up by trying to wind him down!

Maybe it's easier at the dog park because he's already free to mingle with other dogs and there's no build up like there is when he spots another dog and gets to zone in on it, because he's already running around with other dogs having a good time.

There is a build up at the dog park. Our dog park has a fairly long walk up to it before it's officially off leash. He does get very excited, but it's a sure bet for him. He WILL be let off for a play and so we're back to what I said before about him being far less excited when he's walking towards a dog on the same side of the road. I think it's a frustration thing. There's not much frustration in a sure bet.

I appreciate your distance and focus deal. Like I said, we're working on focus anyway and were before this started, but it takes time to build that up. And normally distance would be important, but in this case I'd rather be lazy and work on strengthening things that are already strong than suddenly starting from scratch. You've got to understand that Kivi is a bit vague. There's no betting on whether he will notice something ten metres away or whether he'll notice it 200 metres away or at all. I have found it easier to just concentrate on excitement level and have so far ignored distance because distance seems to mean very little to Kivi most of the time. Picking the right excitement level to practice in has made all the difference with him so far. The problem is now just at the highest excitement levels, and it's all unpredictable.

corvus

I don't really understand exactly what you're saying here. Is he calm or frustrated and zoned out? He's not both. I think as long as he thinks he might get to greet the other dog he is very excited, but it's under control. It's a borderline affair. I'm not really interested in deliberately pushing him over that line so that it's no longer under control. I don't think that would be helpful for a dog like Kivi. Erik, maybe, but not Kivi.

It doesn't sound like there's much if any control there - he only "holds it together" when he thinks he's going to get his own way, and might sit for a short time but still pays no or little attention to you, and if you try and walk him away he carries on. To me, that screams the exact opposite of being under control. 

Okay, that's how you operate. That's fine. It's not how I operate. I really don't see why I would make him lose what focus he has when I don't need to. It's there, just tenuous. Pushing him over the edge so he loses it seems like a step backwards to me. The difference here is that Kivi isn't carrying on before I turn him around. He's in control and he's capable of doing at least one thing I ask.

But there is no focus?

Huski, his focus on me when I ask for a sit in the face of high levels of excitement and frustration is, understandably, barely existant! 

 

I think you're imagining a different scenario to the one I'm experiencing. If he's beside himself to greet another dog it doesn't matter what I do because I've already lost him, haven't I? However, at the moment, I would say it's taking about 5 seconds to go from lunging to sitting. Kivi is low drive. This is as bad as he gets. No need to walk him away when I only have to wait it out for a few seconds. It's not fear that's driving my decisions here, huski, just lazyness. Why walk away with my dog and end up physically fighting with him as well as fighting for his focus when I can stand still for 5 seconds and achieve the same thing without the fight?

Shouldn't the number one goal be getting that focus back, what you are doing from the sounds of it doesn't work very well now because when he's spot a dog he wants to get to he's got no or barely any regard for you. Why would you continue doing something that doesn't work? You asked for advice because what you do now doesn't work the way you want it to, which is why I advised doing something different.

He might sit, but from what you've said, even when you manage to get him to sit when he's highly aroused you don't have much focus or control and if you need to walk him away from the dog (and he realises he isn't going to get his own way) he carries on. To me, the lazy option would be to walk away and get his focus when he's calmer instead of fighting for his focus when he's excited, in a way which clearly isn't working for you.

At the end of the day if he had any value or regard for you in these situations you would be able to walk away from the other dog without physically fighting with him. Why walk away with him? Because sometimes you will need to have control over him in these situations and sometimes you will need to walk him away from a dog he's excited about, without having to physically fight him. How can this be achieved if you never do it?

Yes, but we're not talking about the same dog or the same problem. Kivi's threshold is also obvious: he walks on a loose leash or he starts to pull! Critical distance does not just refer to how far away I'd have to walk to regain control. It refers to how close I'd need to get to the dog before he reacts. I'm saying distance is not the critical factor. His ears might perk up if he so much as hears another dog. But I'm okay with that. I'm okay with him reacting to dogs. I just don't want to wind him up by trying to wind him down!

I was just using Micha as an example you said you don't agree there is such a thing as critical distance.

There is a build up at the dog park. Our dog park has a fairly long walk up to it before it's officially off leash. He does get very excited, but it's a sure bet for him. He WILL be let off for a play and so we're back to what I said before about him being far less excited when he's walking towards a dog on the same side of the road. I think it's a frustration thing. There's not much frustration in a sure bet. 

Isn't that what I said? That he knows he is going to run around and mingle with other dogs, so there isn't the same excitement, frustration and build up like there is when he is on leash?

 

I appreciate your distance and focus deal. Like I said, we're working on focus anyway and were before this started, but it takes time to build that up. And normally distance would be important, but in this case I'd rather be lazy and work on strengthening things that are already strong than suddenly starting from scratch. You've got to understand that Kivi is a bit vague. There's no betting on whether he will notice something ten metres away or whether he'll notice it 200 metres away or at all. I have found it easier to just concentrate on excitement level and have so far ignored distance because distance seems to mean very little to Kivi most of the time. Picking the right excitement level to practice in has made all the difference with him so far. The problem is now just at the highest excitement levels, and it's all unpredictable.

 

Sometimes we have to do more than just be lazy. I don't want to ever have to physically fight with my dogs when they don't get their own way - while it may be easier in the short term to give in to them by avoiding situations where they don't get what they want, it does not solve the problem in the long term.

I guess I'm confused about what you want, Corvus. You posted about a problem because what you are doing now doesn't work. But you don't want to change what you are doing now, even if that means that the problem could be solved, because of laziness? Why post asking for advice in the first place, if you don't want to change the way you are doing it now?

huski

So basically, he'll chuck a tanty if he knows he isn't going to get his own way? That he can keep it together if he knows that he is going to get his own way and thinks he will still get to greet the other dog wouldn't mean much to me, if it were my dog, and would be telling me the opposite the dog is calm. In fact - I'd see that as a pretty serious issue. That he's that frustrated and zoned in on the other dog that he'd carry on if he thinks he won't get to greet it would reinforce (to me) that I need to break his focus on the other dog.

 

Um,

I don't want to start world war three, but Tanty's, other dogs, stays and focus are all linked in my opinion. Behavourists (not the ones that think they can fix dog bahviour but the school of Pyscology)  would suggest that in general tanty's are extinction bursts, and in general would just ride them out.  They are what they are, the symptom of a behaviour diminishing.

It is easy to muck up stays. For some reason (i don't know what ) i often get them right. After asking others, i think i do most of it really backwards. I talk to my dog in a calming way. I stroke them gently. I smile. At th end of the stay i reward using foor, pats, cuddles, but never a game. You can get away with a cuddle or two in the ring if you have no shame, i don't.

Dogs reaction to other dogs can be explained using pack theory. It is absolutely neccessary for a pack animal to have social skills and to want to be part of a pack that is forming. The deviant is the dog who doesn't or for some reason such as poor socailaisation, an errant owner, poor genes or often conflcit on inter breed language and play skills. It is a great drive to use and can exist along side prey drive as a drive that can give great training results.

Focus can be obtained using various expressions of prey drive , and or pack drive. I am never quite sure what does it for my older poodle, but she seems to smile and can't wait to work.

To be really honest, i am finding talking about drive almost a little old fashioned. Lately i have been reading a book called "Affective NeuroScience" which talks about and shows how emotions control various different behaviours amongst many animals. What we talk about in dog training is a system level view, we have knowledge based on  a black box view of the brain. 

 Affective NeuroScience combines a system level with a near cell level understanding to give some really interesting insights. Karen Pryor mentions this view in her new book as does Temple Grandin in her latest too.

 

poodleOwned

huski

So basically, he'll chuck a tanty if he knows he isn't going to get his own way? That he can keep it together if he knows that he is going to get his own way and thinks he will still get to greet the other dog wouldn't mean much to me, if it were my dog, and would be telling me the opposite the dog is calm. In fact - I'd see that as a pretty serious issue. That he's that frustrated and zoned in on the other dog that he'd carry on if he thinks he won't get to greet it would reinforce (to me) that I need to break his focus on the other dog.

 

Um,

I don't want to start world war three, but Tanty's, other dogs, stays and focus are all linked in my opinion. Behavourists (not the ones that think they can fix dog bahviour but the school of Pyscology)  would suggest that in general tanty's are extinction bursts, and in general would just ride them out.  They are what they are, the symptom of a behaviour diminishing.

Sorry - exactly what have I said that you disagree with? I think I just realised what it is in the above sentence that is causing people to misinterpret it - sorry Corvus, I understand why you are confused.

When I said "would be telling me the opposite the dog is calm" I actually meant that it would be telling me the opposite of the dog being calm, not that the dog IS calm - but that it isn't. *reminds self not to write posts late at night*

/embarrassed

Dogs reaction to other dogs can be explained using pack theory. It is absolutely neccessary for a pack animal to have social skills and to want to be part of a pack that is forming. The deviant is the dog who doesn't or for some reason such as poor socailaisation, an errant owner, poor genes or often conflcit on inter breed language and play skills. It is a great drive to use and can exist along side prey drive as a drive that can give great training results.

True, I consider myself part of my dog's pack - but I don't consider a random dog on the street part of my dog's pack.

Focus can be obtained using various expressions of prey drive , and or pack drive. I am never quite sure what does it for my older poodle, but she seems to smile and can't wait to work.

Or food drive! :)

To be really honest, i am finding talking about drive almost a little old fashioned. Lately i have been reading a book called "Affective NeuroScience" which talks about and shows how emotions control various different behaviours amongst many animals. What we talk about in dog training is a system level view, we have knowledge based on  a black box view of the brain.

That's nice. I like understanding drive and I like the word.

huski

True, I consider myself part of my dog's pack - but I don't consider a random dog on the street part of my dog's pack.

 

Actually, evolution has given our dogs few ways of dealing with strangers.  A dog has no reason to believe that a dog in close proximity to us is not  a new member of the pack or about to be a new member of the pack other than it's socialisation and genetic history. If you go through the various breeds and groups of breeds, there are strong genetic histories of dogs that just love new members and in fact got geneticaly selected against if they didn't.

You only need to look at many hounds and gun dogs that work together and eagerly seek new members

Then you have the guarding breeds that are a bit more reticent.

 And all kinds of in between. The idea that packs are fixed and don't change a whole lot just isn't true.

If i plotted my own dogs movements, they belong and co-operate with about 4 different packs with different members each week. If hey couldn't,  i wouldn't work them the way i do.

 

Okay, this is getting confusing. I'll simplify it.

My chief concern and the reason why I started this thread is that I'm worried that I'm winding Kivi up more around other dogs by asking for a sit and then predictably releasing him to greet the dog. I was looking for comments on that and suggestions for how I can avoid training a "go run off as fast as you can to the other dog" command. I've had some great answers. Thanks folks!

I was also open to other ideas for how I could tackle this problem. To me, the sit is working in that when I first started asking for a sit I'd usually be waiting around for maybe half a minute and now I often don't need to ask. He just plants his rear when he wants to go somewhere. This has generalised not just to dogs, but things he can smell that he desperately wants me to take him to, cats he wants to chase, birds he is interested in, pretty much anything he finds pretty exciting. Another benefit is that it does switch his ears on for listening to me. I've got a nice "If I want it I need to sit for it" thing going on, but I'm not entirely confident that it's the most EFFICIENT way of getting to where I want to go, which is not to have a dog that ignores other dogs, but to have a dog that doesn't try to tow me over to other dogs when on leash.

I'm open to other ideas, but that doesn't mean I have to agree that my current method is not the most efficient for this dog in this situation, let alone that it is not working. I do not think that increasing his frustration is more efficient than asking for a sit and waiting it out and I'm not going to change my mind on that. It just doesn't make good sense to me. Why would I tip him over the edge? It would be a big step backwards. Increasing his level of frustration is not going to help me with his focus. I just can't believe that it would. Sorry.

I can thoroughly believe that Kivi thinks the world is his pack. He doesn't love other dogs simply because they sometimes play with him. He loves them because they are dogs and he is a dog and dogs are social and he is a particularly social individual and he has a burning need to interact with them.

As far as tantrums go, it's not a matter of him throwing a tantrum because he's not getting what he wants (although I think that's a thoroughly legitimate reason to throw a tantrum and my policy towards tantrums is to wait them out). Sometimes he's gotta accept that he's not getting what he wants, and he doesn't like it, but he rarely throws a tanty over it. With dogs he's more likely to just lean, drag the chain, look over his shoulder, try to stop and stare back at the dog... HOWEVER, if I he saw a dog and I reacted to his reaction by promptly turning around and walking in the opposite direction, I think I would get a tantrum. Not because he's not getting what he wants but because he can't handle that level of excitement and frustration. That's not his problem; it's mine. If he can't handle that level then I'm certainly not going to just deliberately create that level. It seems like setting him up for failure. As long as he'll do something when I ask, I don't want to abandon it for a method I think will result in him being incapable of doing anything I ask.

corvus

I was also open to other ideas for how I could tackle this problem. To me, the sit is working in that when I first started asking for a sit I'd usually be waiting around for maybe half a minute and now I often don't need to ask. He just plants his rear when he wants to go somewhere. This has generalised not just to dogs, but things he can smell that he desperately wants me to take him to, cats he wants to chase, birds he is interested in, pretty much anything he finds pretty exciting. Another benefit is that it does switch his ears on for listening to me. I've got a nice "If I want it I need to sit for it" thing going on, but I'm not entirely confident that it's the most EFFICIENT way of getting to where I want to go, which is not to have a dog that ignores other dogs, but to have a dog that doesn't try to tow me over to other dogs when on leash.

I think the problem for me would be what happens when the sit doesn't work for him. Where is his focus when he sits for something he wants, like greeting another dog? Are all eyes on you or is he focused on the distraction?

I'm open to other ideas, but that doesn't mean I have to agree that my current method is not the most efficient for this dog in this situation, let alone that it is not working.

But it's not working, is it?

I do not think that increasing his frustration is more efficient than asking for a sit and waiting it out and I'm not going to change my mind on that. It just doesn't make good sense to me. Why would I tip him over the edge? It would be a big step backwards. Increasing his level of frustration is not going to help me with his focus. I just can't believe that it would. Sorry.

So, you think that no matter how far you walked in the opposite direction he'd never get over his frustration and you'd not be able to get any control or focus back?

Maybe it's just me but the fact that walking him away from a dog he's interested in would tip him over the edge would show me there's a serious problem. You should be able to walk him away from a dog he wants to greet without "tipping him over the edge". Perhaps that's not an issue to you, but there are many instances where my dogs have to walk away from a dog they may be interested in, and I couldn't have a dog tipping over the edge from the sheer frustration of not getting what they want.

As far as tantrums go, it's not a matter of him throwing a tantrum because he's not getting what he wants (although I think that's a thoroughly legitimate reason to throw a tantrum and my policy towards tantrums is to wait them out).

What do you think the reason for his frustration is - isn't it because he's not getting what he wants? (interaction with the other dog).

Not because he's not getting what he wants but because he can't handle that level of excitement and frustration. That's not his problem; it's mine. If he can't handle that level then I'm certainly not going to just deliberately create that level. It seems like setting him up for failure. As long as he'll do something when I ask, I don't want to abandon it for a method I think will result in him being incapable of doing anything I ask.

 

But surely there are times when he will have to walk by other dogs without greeting them, dogs he wants to meet, wouldn't it be better to teach him not to get that frustrated and excited to the point where he is physically hard to manage? Aren't you setting him up for failure by not equipping him with the ability to be able to control himself?

poodleOwned

huski

True, I consider myself part of my dog's pack - but I don't consider a random dog on the street part of my dog's pack.

 

Actually, evolution has given our dogs few ways of dealing with strangers.  A dog has no reason to believe that a dog in close proximity to us is not  a new member of the pack or about to be a new member of the pack other than it's socialisation and genetic history. If you go through the various breeds and groups of breeds, there are strong genetic histories of dogs that just love new members and in fact got geneticaly selected against if they didn't.

You only need to look at many hounds and gun dogs that work together and eagerly seek new members

Then you have the guarding breeds that are a bit more reticent.

 And all kinds of in between. The idea that packs are fixed and don't change a whole lot just isn't true.

If i plotted my own dogs movements, they belong and co-operate with about 4 different packs with different members each week. If hey couldn't,  i wouldn't work them the way i do.

 

 

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't believe for a second that my dogs look at every random dog we pass in the street as a new or potential pack member. I don't think that a random dog my dog sniffs and says hello to has automatically become a member of her pack. I don't believe packs are fixed either in terms of pack structure, IMO packs are fluid but I don't agree this means that dogs consider each dog they come across as a pack member nor that she has more value for a strange dog she met 30 seconds ago than she does for me.

 Corvus, Jack has this same issue.  I'm glad that he is so dog friendly but we have had to really work on the fact that he does not get to meet every dog we ever come across.  Honestly, being in dog related classes has helped  a lot.  He has learned to focus on something else (learning and rewards) with other dogs in close proximity.  He is *not* allowed to greet during class--that is his "working" time.  He has also learned that focusing on me, rather than the dog a few feet away from him, gets him good things--food or verbal praise, and sometimes both. 

Honestly, the u-turn thing does work well with Jack.  He gets most hyped up when there is another really excited dog who wants to meet him too.  There a a certain excitement threshold that he reaches where he just *needs* to take it down a notch.  So, I just happily tell him "let's go" and move the opposite direction swiftly.  We might do heeling work, or I might just ask him to keep moving with me--anything to just get him out of the high energy situation, his excitement level down, and allow him to take a breather and refocus.