Over-eager

I'm not sure if someone else suggested this already or not, but do you reward him for looking at something?  This is what my trainer likes to do.  She will throw random things around, make noises and distractions, and when our dogs *look*, we mark and reward them for looking.  The idea is to teach them it's OK to be alert, and our goal is to mark and reward before the dog reacts with anything other than a glace.  It helps teach them that these things are neutral, and return the focus to us (I've found that giving the mark basically acts like a focus command b/c the dog returns the attention to me in anticipation of the reward).  So basically it's a win-win for the dog as long as the distraction is not too much too soon and you can mark/reward before any other reaction.  This way the focus returns to you, the reward comes from you, the distraction/object is neutral and does not become the reward.

 I haven't tried that, Lies. I wonder if it would make much of an impact with Kivi. He really is pretty vague. He just ambles along, browsing for possum poo to eat and trying to incite me to give him treats for hanging about (which I always do because hey, it's something I always want). He's not what you would think of as a drivey or reactive dog. Mostly he's just standing around or glueing himself to my leg and wouldn't notice something unless it was streaking across his peripheral vision or something. Or if it were a dog, of course.

It might be good for Erik, though, who's about a thousand times more alert than Kivi is and much busier.

Hi Liesje

Liesje

This is what my trainer likes to do.  She will throw random things around, make noises and distractions, and when our dogs *look*, we mark and reward them for looking.  The idea is to teach them it's OK to be alert, and our goal is to mark and reward before the dog reacts with anything other than a glace.  It helps teach them that these things are neutral, and return the focus to us (I've found that giving the mark basically acts like a focus command b/c the dog returns the attention to me in anticipation of the reward). 

I pretty much do this in training.I am a little tougher as i expect that it should shape In the end to a  really good intensified attention in my poodles. In our obedience, the first excercise in UD is a seek back. An article with our scent on it is place somewhere in a heeling pattern that we make on command in  a 45 x 15 meter ring. The rings are partitioned by ropes, so often if the wind condtions aren't great our dogs need to work in the next ring(s) to find the article, and must be very ok working with other dogs working as well. Since my dogs are all of 7.5kgs wringing wet, they need real focus and confidence.

I realised as i was writing this, that i train a lot with GSDs some of whom are Shutzhund competitors. To me a dog being released to my dogs is no big deal, we are all used to it and vice versa. Then i imagined what would happen in a more typical situation... i think i can here the screams from here. I guess with guarding breeds that you have to be a whole lot more restrained and that aggresion issues can dominate training methods. No one gets too upset with a poodle, and very few people freak with a lab..

poodleOwned

I realised as i was writing this, that i train a lot with GSDs some of whom are Shutzhund competitors. To me a dog being released to my dogs is no big deal, we are all used to it and vice versa. Then i imagined what would happen in a more typical situation... i think i can here the screams from here. I guess with guarding breeds that you have to be a whole lot more restrained and that aggresion issues can dominate training methods. No one gets too upset with a poodle, and very few people freak with a lab..

My youngest GSD is not receptive to strange dogs.  That's just how he is.  We have *never* had a dog fight or even a serious spat at my house.  Dogs are "pack" animals, but what people too often forget is that in the wild, dogs don't just wander from pack to pack or take kindly to strange dogs jumping right into their pack.  That is Nikon to a T.  He simply has no need for any additional playmates or packmates.  I can do a formal heel weaving in an out of strange dogs just fine, he is not going to go into "attack" mode and he is "guarding" me while he is working, he just doesn't care about other dogs and doesn't take too kindly for the head-on approach that so many pet owners never correct or even seem to encourage.  If someone asks if their dog can meet Nikon, I allow them to have their dog sniff Nikon's butt and all is fine, I do NOT allow head-on approaches.  For me that is just common sense and has nothing to do with breed. 

Like you say unlike a lab or poodle owner, I am fighting the assumption that my breed is naturally dog and human aggressive and will attack anything that moves.  I hold Nikon and Kenya to a higher standard for behavior than Coke.  Coke probably gets away with more, from me and from other dog owners.

Just for clarity, "aggression issues" do not dominate our training methods.  If a dog is aggressive it is dealt with, regardless of whether it's my working dog or my pet dog.  This sort of proves my point about the misunderstanding about the breed and Schutzhund.  In my experience, the most safe, reliable GSDs have been high level SchH dogs.  They are sound in the head, under control, know when to turn it on and turn it off.  You can train a dog to compete internationally with very little to NO aggression at all, that is why the "points dogs" are called "prey monsters".  It's just a game to them, there is no real aggression (civil, defense, etc).

Jewlieee

Lies, I really want to hear more about the small steps you took to get that control. It sounds like it might work for abbie.

No prob, I actually talked about it here: http://forum.dog.com/forums/t/99352.aspx

Basically, I did a complete training overhaul.  My previous two dogs have been lower energy, lower drive, pretty well-behaved, friendly dogs.  Sure, I had to train them not to be too distracted by other dogs and not to charge over to them, but their underlying temperament is that they are accepting of other dogs, even like them.  Whereas Nikon is high energy, high drive, more confident and dominant, not accepting of other dogs in his "space", has no desire to make new friends with other dogs, and at the time I had these issues was most likely going through a "fear period" making the reactivity worse.  My problem trying to address the issue on walks (by u-turns, slow desensitization, etc) was that I had no control over the other dog.  A lot of houses on our walk actually have loose dogs that are on e-fences or no fence at all, most are nice but they will run up to a passing dog.  Also I found the pet store and our all-breed training club to be too small, too loud, and just too much at once.  So I basically gave up on working on the DA and leash reactivity.  Didn't walk the dog for several months, didn't take him to the pet store.  We kept going to Schutzhund (where dog issues don't matter since we work 1-2 dogs at a time in a very controlled environment).  In July I took Nikon out for a walk to see where he was at and was surprised that the reactivity was no longer an issue.  He will still get pissy if another dog approaches directly and gets in his face, but that's just how he is and I won't sweat it.  I found that putting all the focus on developing our bond, giving the dog a reason to trust me and want to be engaged with ME rather than worry about the other dog made all the difference in the world.  It was not a matter of slow exposure and desensitization to other dogs.  I literally kept him away from other dogs for several months, then one day took him on a walk where we passed and were approached by several strange dogs and it was like I was walking a new dog.  It has taught me that sometimes we put too much focus on specific "issues" and try so hard to micromanage or alter certain behaviors that we overlook teaching our dogs important general lessons like being in sync with each other, trusting each other, understanding what really motivates the dog and how to use that to our advantage.

 This thread has been great. i'm glad it was started! Lies, I think that Nikon and Abbie are a lot alike. The stuff I have tried with her is not working so it's time to try something else. What I've tried so far:

 Watch me - she has a very solid watch me, however even this raises her stimulation level. The watch me is always followed by a reward and the thought of a reward to Abbie is almost too much for her to bear.

Look at that - I totally admit that I just can't wrap my head around this one and this is why it's not working. I've read the book and worked with a behaviorist on this and it just doesn't seem to get the result that everyone says that it should.

Distance and desensitization work - As soon as Abbie sees or hears another dog (even if she hears it through the TV), she is over the top. There is no low or long distance threshold to begin with.

Sit - I have worked her in camp grounds, pet stores, on walks, etc. to enforce a sit when we see another dog in hopes that the sit is a calming type behavior. While it does seem to take her down a fraction of a notch, she is still on super high alert and in no way focused on me.

U-turns - this gets her frustrated and irritated which she then redirects to the dog in question - it's not a good idea.

 Focus work while walking - something the trainer and I worked on.

One thing for Abbie is that she knows when we're training and when we are not. All of my dogs are wise to this. How I've worked Neiko and Lily through this is just to take them every where and anywhere with me. I am a regular at many stores and shopping centers with my dogs (I always ask permission). The goal is to get them in working mode and following my directions. Abbie is not at the level yet where I trust her to go every where with me. She gets too excited and anxious over little things.

When I trained Labs for retrieving, the same method Lies did worked for all my dogs.  I didn't do it conciously or because there was a problem with other dogs.  It was just that all my time was spent training the dogs to retrieve.  Their focus was strictly on me and the training.  They could have cared less about other dogs and this translated into other dogs everywhere.  They had inadvertently been trained to ignore strange dogs.  They were still more than willing to play with dogs they knew in the proper setting.

Jewlieee

Sit - I have worked her in camp grounds, pet stores, on walks, etc. to enforce a sit when we see another dog in hopes that the sit is a calming type behavior. While it does seem to take her down a fraction of a notch, she is still on super high alert and in no way focused on me.

This was my reasoning behind using sits with Kivi, but he's down a few more notches than that, so it works a bit better. He's still pretty excited, though. I'm finding that it takes several sits before Kivi has come down far enough to be able to manage loose leash walking, and then maybe a few more!

U-turns - this gets her frustrated and irritated which she then redirects to the dog in question - it's not a good idea.

And that's essentially why I didn't want to try U-turns with Kivi. As I've been trying to explain but possibly failing, a tangent is not the same as a U-turn. Kivi cares about where we are walking to in relation to the other dog. He can cope with walking off on a tangent to the other dog, but I really feel a U-turn would make him too frustrated. He'd come down, and probably reasonably quickly, but it doesn't make sense to me to deliberately increase the frustration.

This morning I took Kivi for a run while OH took Erik for a walk. OH left first, but we saw Erik on the other side of the road heading the opposite direction as we left our street. Kivi was responsive, but distracted. He would hang about when asked, but then he'd want to stop and look behind. He was nowhere near losing it, but he was reluctant to keep up. I think that's an improvement on last week, even. He later finally got to meet that GR puppy he sees sometimes on our run. He saw her from a good 70 metres away, and trotted at my side perfectly in control until he was within "striking" distance. Then the people let their puppy come greet him before I got him to sit. You win some, you lose some. Once he'd given her a good sniff and loved on her owners, he was perfectly happy to keep up with me and didn't look behind his shoulder once. Sometimes I think it's all a bit mysterious. Why does he want to meet every dog? It's not like he hasn't had his share of being snapped at by dogs he doesn't know. It's not like he wants to play with them. He just wants to greet and then move on.

Another reason I gave up on using sits, heel, focus, etc around other dogs initially is that I didn't want lack of focus or disobedience to cheapen those skills.  When say "sit" I mean "plant your butt down, focus on me and don't so much as blink until I say otherwise."  I won't use a command if I don't think I will get 100% compliance from the dog.  Otherwise it is unfair to the dog and too frustrating for me (which is also unfair to the dog).

Liesje

Just for clarity, "aggression issues" do not dominate our training methods.  If a dog is aggressive it is dealt with, regardless of whether it's my working dog or my pet dog.  This sort of proves my point about the misunderstanding about the breed and Schutzhund.  In my experience, the most safe, reliable GSDs have been high level SchH dogs.  They are sound in the head, under control, know when to turn it on and turn it off.  You can train a dog to compete internationally with very little to NO aggression at all, that is why the "points dogs" are called "prey monsters".  It's just a game to them, there is no real aggression (civil, defense, etc).

HI Liesje

I am genuinely sorry that what i wrote came out like that. I admire Shutzhund dogs, and like GSDs as a breed. I should have written "percieved aggression issues". Many new owners with GSDs here spend a lot of time trying to "get on top" of their GSDs, and i have noted that many of them may induce aggression accidently in their companions. I off course was not suggesting that you do at all. :)

Liesje

Dogs are "pack" animals, but what people too often forget is that in the wild, dogs don't just wander from pack to pack or take kindly to strange dogs jumping right into their pack.

GSPs are bred so that they are highly social and will accpet new dogs easily. It is common here that a few GSPs from different places will be put in a UTE for a hunt and are expected to get on. That is a pack event today.

 As a younger lad, i took part in high country musters. Large flocks of sheep would be controlled by groups of dogs that normally had nothing to do with each other.They would be expected to be gracious towards each other. Aggresive dogs didn't last very long.

Smaller poodles can actually be very diffiuclt group dogs. I think that one of the side effects of showing with confidence and very up is that they don't understand the concept of appeasement or backing off with each other.

The actual range of pack behaviours is huge, and trying to develop a norm is really really hard. It is probably even worse than trying to establish a norm for the social behaviour of people.

JackieG

When I trained Labs for retrieving, the same method Lies did worked for all my dogs.  I didn't do it conciously or because there was a problem with other dogs.  It was just that all my time was spent training the dogs to retrieve.  Their focus was strictly on me and the training.  They could have cared less about other dogs and this translated into other dogs everywhere.  They had inadvertently been trained to ignore strange dogs.  They were still more than willing to play with dogs they knew in the proper setting.

HI

I found that with my older dog (the one in the photo) that if a drive activity was on, nothing else existed. If we were tracking, only the track existed. If we were retrieving, then it was only the retrieve.  I think though that to be fair his breeding may be somewhat different that USA labs. He had some US show lines, but was mostly UK bred. He was a very social dog outside of this though:)) Labs here are seen as one of the more social dogs, and really ot be honest many are too liberally socialised as bullies.

I generally start walking away in a dog park if i see the average Lab and owner coming. :)  They are generally a strong showing in the deathly group of " he/se only wants to play".

Labs and staffies, pO. Kivi loves labs and staffies because they play rough with him and don't mind his contact sports. Kivi is a very touchy feely dog. He looooves contact. He doesn't care if it is rough or gentle. He's the dog at the dog park that gets bullied because he brings it on himself. He puts up with poor treatment because the pay off of play is worth it. Since he's been tumbled a few times, he's come to realise that the pay off is not always worth it and picks his playmates with a little more discrimination. A tiny bit. He's still overly tolerant, though, and still gets tumbled now and then because he always plays the deer.

Interestingly, we've met several touchy Beagles lately. I always thought Beagles were a breed that was expected to run with loads of other Beagles without a care. Maybe it's just Kivi they don't like. My spitzes go ape over other spitzes, but some dogs don't like all that fur and pointy ears and curly tails. 

poodleOwned

I generally start walking away in a dog park if i see the average Lab and owner coming. :)  They are generally a strong showing in the deathly group of " he/se only wants to play".

LOL, I know exactly what you are saying. 

poodleOwned

Liesje

Just for clarity, "aggression issues" do not dominate our training methods.  If a dog is aggressive it is dealt with, regardless of whether it's my working dog or my pet dog.  This sort of proves my point about the misunderstanding about the breed and Schutzhund.  In my experience, the most safe, reliable GSDs have been high level SchH dogs.  They are sound in the head, under control, know when to turn it on and turn it off.  You can train a dog to compete internationally with very little to NO aggression at all, that is why the "points dogs" are called "prey monsters".  It's just a game to them, there is no real aggression (civil, defense, etc).

 

HI Liesje

I am genuinely sorry that what i wrote came out like that. I admire Shutzhund dogs, and like GSDs as a breed. I should have written "percieved aggression issues". Many new owners with GSDs here spend a lot of time trying to "get on top" of their GSDs, and i have noted that many of them may induce aggression accidently in their companions. I off course was not suggesting that you do at all. :)

Actually, I would argue that they are not "inducing aggression" but ignoring or even encouraging fear responses.  Even among top SchH dogs it's becoming more rare to see a dog that has really nice, controlled, but powerful civil aggression.  It's not really something I can explain here because you have to become familiarized with it to even notice.  Most "aggressive" responses I see from GSDs (and all dogs) are fear reactions.  A great GSD has some civil aggression and a clear head.

But I agree that too many people try to "get on top" of their GSDs.  Even among GSD owners there's this idea that the dogs are bullheaded, stubborn, dominant, and need a strong hand.  In fact they are very attached to their owner, eager to please and ready to learn, many (including both of my own) are extremely handler sensitive.  I can't think of many breeds that are easier to train than a GSD.