Leashes - control or backup?

Well, he's coming along really well. We're finding that his puppy leash is too short to teach him much when walking the 'burbs, but the long line is not entirely safe on roadsides when pup doesn't have any roadsense. I think we might just use the longline but only half of it or something. It seems like an uphill battle to teach a dog to walk beside you when he hits the end of the leash barely a full bodylength in front of you. He's constantly doing the wrong thing and he doesn't even know what that is. So we're doing more work on the longline.

If I had my way, we wouldn't be using a leash at all, but yeah, that's not entirely safe in our current environment. I've come to dislike leashes. Especially trying to communicate through it. I've come to dislike that use of leashes because I have found it's very easy to communicate the wrong thing. And that's one of the main reasons why I've switched to harnesses. I don't want to get into the habit of trying to control my dog through the leash. It's harder to do that with a harness.

Anyway, we continued on much the same way as I've outlined, only phasing out the treats and like Chuffy said, substituting the continuation of the walk. He's really not a natural puller at this stage and it doesn't take much treat popping for him to figure out what he's meant to be doing. In fact, the verbal praise is sinking in pretty well, too. We went for a walk this morning and didn't use any treats at all, and only had to stop for him a couple of times. I think he walks better than Penny does. He does amazing sits in any circumstance at just a flick of the finger, which I'm still leaning on in helping us to teach him. Wish I'd taught him down first.

I realise some of this confusion comes from the fact that I'm not really trying to teach LLW per se. I'm trying to teach him how to walk with us. Which means there are times he's gotta stick real close and times he can meander but if he's not getting what he wants, a surefire way to change that is to come in close. I guess that probably doesn't make much sense.

This thread has made me realise I don't want any help with this and I want to stick with my instincts. If I muck it up I muck it up and then I'll fix it, but I've got to do it my way for myself and see how we go. At this point we're slowly but surely making constant headway. 

For us, a mix of both.

Sasha is really good at staying near and listening, but she has severe anxiety about other dogs and that is one situation in which I rely on the leash as a control so that she can't respond faster than I can direct her. I'm sure with more work she'd be able to reliably stick to my side when presented with strange dogs, but I'll be honest and say I don't have that time right now!

With Eko, its control. Plain and simple. He's actually very good at loose leash walking, with occasional exceptions. He tries to pull for the first minute or two, from excitement, and if he sees a prey animal fleeing he will sometimes pull. I'm not sure how hard to come down on the latter, as in lure coursing you want a dog that is straining at the bit, so to speak. I think I'll work to add a command as a part of our "hunting together" work. 

We teach loose leash walking by refusing to move forward if the dog is pulling. Dog pulls, we stop. Dog looks back at us, "good boy!" and we move forward. This teaches a dog that pulling is pretty pointless, and encourages the dog to pay attention to the handler. On a walk, Eko checks in with us frequently, looking up into our faces and making eye contact.

We use treats during leash work, but kind of as backup and not as the primary focus.

"going with your instincts" may sound good but it is unlikely to lead to good results. If I recall correctly Penny "offers" very determined sits and nothing else and it sounds like you are teaching the new dog the same behavior. The best dog trainers have a very clear picture in their heads of the "finished" behavior, and the other criterion for good training is good timing and lots of feedback. You sound like you have a very vague idea of what you want and thus your dog is going to be, by necessity, confused. I'm confused as to what you want the dog to do- walk in heel? wander around but move with you in general? never move out in front of you? what do you think the poor dog feels? there is nothing wrong with asking for random obedience while walking, such as asking for occasional periods of heel, or sit, or recalls, but in-between such orders you need to be clear in your own head what the dog's criteria for walking are.

 Yeah, Penny offers sits because it's the only thing she was trained with food to do. No food, no sits. Seems like for all your apparent expertise you never understood exactly what was behind her behaviour despite me saying it repeatedly. I'm delighted that my new dog already sits far more reliably than Penny in any situation. That's a good thing as far as I'm concerned. Defaulting to a sit is also a good thing, as long as he'll still do other things as well. I've gone to pains to teach him that there are other ways to get things he wants than sitting, no thanks to you who simply told me I don't have a clicker savvy dog when I asked for help with this. My instincts got me out of that one thanks all the same. I never had any clear things in mind when I raised my hare. I just dealt with things as they arose. I'm not about training, I'm about getting along. If a hare can not only cope with that method but flourish, than I'm not terribly worried about my dog. As I said, if I muck it up I'll fix it, so thanks but no thanks. Sometimes we just have to find our own way and sometimes you just have to let people go into the big scary dark and hope they'll come out. I intend to come out with everyone I went in with. I'll call you when I have a dog that walks nicely on leash and comes when called. Looks like it might be next week.

I'm done with all of this rubbish. Before I got this puppy I said I was going to forget everything I knew about dogs and let him reteach me. It'll be a lot easier without the "support" of dog forums, I think. You know mudpuppy, I don't even remember the last time I heard anything positive from you about someone other than yourself. You're one hell of a positive trainer.

May as well go out with a load of red. God bless, everyone. Hope you all have more success with your dogs than I am apparently doomed to. 

 Um, I've been awful busy (and distracted by stuff in "Nutrition";) so I never got back to this.  I don't think mudpuppy's view represents everyone? 

I never had any clear things in mind when I raised my hare. I just dealt with things as they arose. I'm not about training, I'm about getting along. If a hare can not only cope with that method but flourish, than I'm not terribly worried about my dog.

I think what you want to do (and I haven't read everything in detail so I'm not sure), is make your method very dog focused and fluid.  That's fine (well, of course it is).

From what you've described with your hare, your hare operates on prey driven motivations.  Sheep are like this too.  Anytime you interact with any animal, you are in "training" mode - because the animal has a mind and learns from you.  I deal with wildlife in a "training" situation also - I convince wild waterfowl to reside elsewhere besides in populated areas.  I don't do this by catching the geese and clicker training them.  I do it in a back and forth dance that includes some aversives, and some rewards for "appropriate" behavior.  It's still training, because the fowl are always learning anytime I'm out there.  It's my job to make sure what they learn are not things that will make the situation worse, like "That dog can't get us if we stay in this corner of the pond."  The same thing happens with domestic livestock.  They think and learn all the time.

So in a way you have no choice but to be "about training"!  But rightly, you have suited, in the case of your hare, your method to the animal.

But I think you would be the first to acknowledge that not every animal is the same.  I wouldn't approach a deer the same as a cow.  Or a chicken the same as a duck.  Or even a wild duck the same as a domestic duck.

Every dog is different and will have a slightly different mental place, where they are willing to learn.  Valhunds are herding dogs, so have quite a bit of team spirit, but they tend to be "take charge" little dogs too, as they were barnyard guardians and alert dogs.  Your pup will need to learn, I'm going to guess, what's "normal" in his surroundings and it's important that you and he be a team as he explores this. 

In a practical sense, this means walks should be varied and frequent and include investigating anything new in his surroundings, and a ritual you go through to check something out, and let him know that it's an acceptable change in your environment.  Ie, a construction team putting on a new roof is fine, so you say, "Look, they are getting a new roof, isn't that nice?"  and then walk on with a smile.  At that point, if he wants to pay too much attention to it, you correct him - just a verbal signal like, ah-ah - and say, "No thank you, let's go!"

Incorporate rituals or little tasks in games with toys, too, to increase his expectation that you need him to do stuff.  Be very pleased both when he learns a new "job" and when he offers it freely in an appropriate way.  His nature will be to try to figure out new ways to insert himself in your daily routine.  Show him ways to do that.

As he matures and you two learn from each other, you should have a dog that practically reads your mind.  As you said, it's just a matter of patience because this only comes with maturity and there's still the rough patch of adolescence ahead.  During his teenaged months, he'll give his listening and learning and communicating skills another big polish - which takes some rubbing! - and then you will both come out of it on the other side with a much deeper understanding of the other's needs.

By the way, I don't use acres to teach my dogs to walk on or off leash.  I have a fifty foot sidewalk out my back door that we don't leave until the dog a) comes when called b) responds to a verbal correction c) walks on a loose leash and d) walks off leash to my satisfaction.  It is nice that I can use acres and be very calm if there is an "oops", but that happens very rarely.