Leashes - control or backup?

    • Gold Top Dog

    Leashes - control or backup?

     We've been starting to do some leash work with Kivi Tarro. He's 13 weeks tomorrow, so we're trying to get him out and about a lot. He's actually quite good on the leash naturally and doesn't tend to pull. At puppy class yesterday the trainer started putting no pull harnesses on all the puppies. I said I didn't want to put one on Kivi. I watched it on the little Weim puppy and it seemed like it was pretty much designed to be uncomfortable. KT has a whole lot more fur than a Weim, but he doesn't pull much anyway and it seemed like it was pretty much flying in the face of my philosophy, which is to do things as gently as possible. I've already got KT a body harness for leash work because it doesn't upset him when he feels the pressure on it like the collar does. When he feels pressure on his collar, he starts bucking. When he feels pressure on the harness, he leans into it, I stop and call him, he races to my side and sits and I give him a jackpot for coming so well and we set out again.

    Anyway, the trainer was fine with me not wanting to put one of these harnesses on him and we discussed what I was doing. She wanted me to use a martingale instead because she thought a dog needed the feedback that they were at the end of the leash and pulling. So I've been walking Kivi a lot on a 5m long line where I can. He ranges out or drops behind and when he gets near the end I say his name once. If he keeps going, he hits the end and starts pulling. Then I call him back using my recall vocal cue "KiviKiviKivi!!". If he hears that he races over at top speed, sits at my feet and gets his jackpot. He hasn't failed that one yet. Or I call him back this way "Kivi, c'mere" which is I guess a less urgent come he can ignore if he likes. If he ignores, we wait until he calms down a bit and try again. Eventually he comes back to me because it's boring out there at the end of the leash not going anywhere. When he starts to come back he gets "Kivi, c'mere" and one treat if he comes back to my side whether he sits or not and we walk on. He's getting good with this and generally comes back the first time I said "Kivi, c'mere", but not at a run, which is what I was after. On the short leash, we walk at my side and when he starts getting ahead, I stop and say sit. He comes back and sits, gets his treat, and won't move until I tell him to walk on. My partner nearly left him at training last night because he didn't tell him to walk on! He was waiting in his sit at the end of his leash. I honestly don't know what that's about. I only introduced walk on to get him to leave his sit in the first place. I'm using sit as a pretty major crutch. I ask him to sit as soon as he looks like he's going to hit the end of the leash, and it's only a short puppy leash. He's doing quite beautiful walks down the road at my side, using my speed to tell him when he needs to plant his rear more than my voice or hand signals. When he's good and focused, he'll sit on his own as soon as his shoulder passes my body. This all disolves the moment he sees a person or dog, but he's only a puppy and he's been in my yard for the last month. He wants to sit at the feet of everyone he sets eyes on and do his puppy "can I lick your face?" wriggles. People walking home from work at night in work clothes and stockings don't often want to cuddle puppies. Even devilishly cute Lappie puppies. But anyway, we just wait it out.

    So I guess this all comes back to whether you see the leash as control or backup? I can see why people want to take the easy route out with puppies and leash training and go for the no pull harness. Instant control. I guess at that age you can probably abandon the harness once they've got the hang of it. But is it the easy route? Is there any reason not to do it that way? From my perspective, what's important to me is that I don't rely on the leash. I expect he'll be on a longline for, like, the next year, but at the moment he's allowed to trail it sometimes and we'll adjust that depending on where he's at that day with recall. I don't like tight leashes. I don't like teaching on a tight leash. I don't like feeling like I need the leash. Ultimately, I want the leash to be backup and my voice the control. So am I going about this the right way? Do you think a no pull harness or something similar on a puppy that isn't a big puller to start with compromises my efforts to teach voice control, or is it just another step on the ladder to voice control? How did you teach loose leash walking and are leashes control or backup for you? 

    • Gold Top Dog

    i always like to have as many means of controlling my dog as possible, just as a back up. for example, when i teach a command, i teach a hand signal, as well as a voice command. (also cause it's easier, of course). i never fade out the hand signal. it comes in handy, when i am on the phone or just talking to someone. i find it a bit rude to interrupt my conversation with someone to give commands to my dog, so i leave that as a back up. same goes for leash walking. of course i teach lose leash walking, but i also use the leash to "position my dogs" when it's appropriate or necessary. this is especially improtant, since i live in an apartment, so i need to navigate them in elevators and lobby to have the least impact on others. i can do the same things i do with my leash with my voice as well, but i like to have both as an option. just in case...

    for what it's worth that came in handy, when i had that horrible cold eariler this year and keept loosing my voice... lol

    • Gold Top Dog

    also, just wanted to add. some dogs have a higher tendancy to pull than others. i think, with a dog that is just THAT much of a natural puller, i can totally understand relying on a tool like the no pull harness, just for the sake of your own sanity!

    • Gold Top Dog

    If he keeps going, he hits the end and starts pulling. Then I call him back using my recall vocal cue "KiviKiviKivi!!". If he hears that he races over at top speed, sits at my feet and gets his jackpot.

    careful you're in danger of training a behavior chain- dog wants food, dog pulls on leash to trigger the recall/food.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Kenya's leash is for backup I guess, well, it's there b/c it's required by law.  Sometimes she is dragging it, or I just have it draped over my neck so my hands are free for my camera.  

    Coke's is still for control at this point.  Still working on that LLW!! 

    • Gold Top Dog

    mudpuppy

    If he keeps going, he hits the end and starts pulling. Then I call him back using my recall vocal cue "KiviKiviKivi!!". If he hears that he races over at top speed, sits at my feet and gets his jackpot.

    careful you're in danger of training a behavior chain- dog wants food, dog pulls on leash to trigger the recall/food.

     

    Yeah, I'm wondering about that. I've been trying to avoid that by varying it. Sometimes he gets a recall and a jackpot, sometimes he gets the casual call and a treat, sometimes we just wait it out. But if I wait it out, inevitably he comes trotting back to me, which seems like a good opportunity to give him the casual call and reward him for it. He's a smart boy, but he's only a pup and I don't think he can remember that long. Anyway, he also gets the recall and jackpot when he isn't at the end of his leash, or when he's behind me. I'm trying to vary it while keeping within the bounds of times he's likely to listen to the jackpot recall. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    are you trying to train recall or loose-leash walking?  seems like a rather round about way of training loose-leash walking that won't work- when training loose-leash walking the dog gets rewarded for keeping the leash loose, not for coming to the owner.

    • Gold Top Dog

     Well, both. Is there any reason why I can't train both at once? I guess it's kind of confusing. He gets treats for walking on a loose leash and treats for coming when called, but for the most part the recall is done on a long line and the loose leash walking on a short leash. When he's on the short leash I'm training loose leash walking, but when he's on the long line I'm training recall, but is there a reason why I can't reward things I like that I'm not specifically training for? If he's on a long line and decides to come walk at my side for a bit, seems a little silly not to reward that. And if he's on a short leash and comes in close and sits at my side when I call his name, seems pretty silly not to reward that, too! It's a bit of an organic process at the moment. He gets rewards for all sorts of things when on a leash. I don't especially want him to plant his butt everytime I say his name, but then again, I've never had a dog that does that before and a nice sit in a distracting environment makes me happy, even if I didn't ask for it, so I tend to pop him a treat for his pretty sits on the footpath, and for nice loose-leash walking, and on a longline coming back when called, and sometimes he swans in and sits at my feet hopefully and it's so cute I pop him one for that, too. And we toss in some other things he knows if he's at my feet looking for a treat and I figure we should practice something other than a sit. I'm yet to convince him to down for dinner, though. He says no, I sit for dinner. We haven't even been particularly strict on that one, but he seems to have got it in his head and gets all frustrated if it's not working, so I haven't pushed the matter. Think we need to practice down in a stimulating environment before he's ready for down before dinner.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Also try not to use the dogs name as a command or a reprimand. It could cause troubles later when your dog decides to rebel.....yes WHEN, LOL. Puppies are easy but teenage puppies are a pain!

    • Gold Top Dog

    Ha! I could try all I like but his name pops out whether I'm calling him, tired of his biting, telling him to do something or whatever else. Penny has learnt over the years that her name is just a precursor and can mean all sorts of things depending on the tone. Besides which, even if I could stop myself, I doubt my partner could. He always shouts the dogs' names when he wants them to stop doing something. It's just human nature, I think. I am trying to reserve one for recall, though. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    This is really an interesting thread. I thjink the answer may lie in where you live and how safe it can be for a dog technically off lead.  I have one old girl who would not leave me for a mountain of cookies , I have some young ones who are scatterbrained yet.  Only Jasmine is allowed off lead all the time.  I could most likely trust Kota but since he does not belong to me I can not take any chances, and Nemo the puppy isn't mine either but he has a really different personality , not an adventursome boy.  The rest of the pack would give themselves a 5 mile romp and straggle back grining.   At Bwana Leashes are a BIG part of control.

    Bonita of Bwana

    • Gold Top Dog

    I also use the leash to communicate and set boundaries.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    corvus

    mudpuppy

    If he keeps going, he hits the end and starts pulling. Then I call him back using my recall vocal cue "KiviKiviKivi!!". If he hears that he races over at top speed, sits at my feet and gets his jackpot.

    careful you're in danger of training a behavior chain- dog wants food, dog pulls on leash to trigger the recall/food.

     

    Yeah, I'm wondering about that. I've been trying to avoid that by varying it. Sometimes he gets a recall and a jackpot, sometimes he gets the casual call and a treat, sometimes we just wait it out. But if I wait it out, inevitably he comes trotting back to me, which seems like a good opportunity to give him the casual call and reward him for it. He's a smart boy, but he's only a pup and I don't think he can remember that long. Anyway, he also gets the recall and jackpot when he isn't at the end of his leash, or when he's behind me. I'm trying to vary it while keeping within the bounds of times he's likely to listen to the jackpot recall. 

     

    Just a thought - you can fade out the treats by making continuation of the walk his "reward".  Otherwise you will either have an undesirable behaviour chain and/or a pup that relies on treats for recalling. 

    What do you SAY when you give him rewards?  When he gets to the end of the lead and you pause the walk and wait it out, when he gets back to you (in his own good time) give him your praise word in a pleased tone and continue the walk.

    You can still carry treats with you and use your "instant" recall word when his response is VERY good and keep treating for that... but start selecting ONLY the best responses to add an extra treat/jackpot for.

    We (and dogs) learn best when we concentrate on one thing at a time.  So my advice is concentrate on LLW... but if he gives you a SUPER opportunity to reinforce his recall on a long lead, then go ahead and grab the opportunity.  That should be rare though - he should be learning that being by your side is the best place to be.... hence no need to recall on lead as he is not leaving your side all that much. 

    For me, the lead is a back up... but it's also one of the many ways I communicate with the dogs.  A slight tightening of the lead is a reminder to "sit" for example.  A slight tug is like a "hey" or a tap on the shoulder if I have given a cue and the dog is too engrossed in something else to respond straight away.  Many times the lead is dragging or I have the end of it in my pocket.  They usually walk pretty nicely on lead.

    • Gold Top Dog

    My dogs are taught neither to walk on a loose leash, nor to "heel."  Both are just as much a control thing as the other, and take freedom and choices away from the dog.

    My dogs learn that their job is to stay with me unless I ask otherwise.  This wouldn't work very well with a sighthound, but I have taught it to a Great Pyrenees mix, a terrier, and a Northern breed - you just have to  find the thing that motivates them - and go in very tiny steps with a dog that's not naturally motivated to take cues from humans.

    Once the dog is reliable off leash, THEN I start using the leash.  I realize this isn't an option for most people, especially if it's going to take months to get that self-motivated off leash walk.  So I borrowed a "safety line" version of what I do - it uses a twenty to thirty foot line and instills the same idea of "with me."

    Once a dog is trained here, they can go to golf courses situated in neighborhoods, airports where human lives depend on their obedience off leash, and into stock working situations where the ultimate temptation surrounds them constantly.  I even have placed a dog that has to chase geese out of pastures where there were cattle in some fields, and million dollar racehorses in other fields. He also has to work one property where landscaping is built on a berm which drops off about thirty feet to a busy street below.

    Leashes break, dogs can ignore commands, but self-motivated shaped behavior is the last thing to fail.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Once the dog is reliable off leash, THEN I start using the leash.

    that's what I do too but I realize most people don't have multi-acre properties to safely start puppies on. Leashes are only added as legally required and never used to "manipulate" the dog's movements. If a leash ever goes taut it's a failure on my part.