Prong Collars - dicuss

 Well, what if you are correct that the dog doesn't feel pain from the collar.  How do you explain why it works?  Pressure alone doesn't work, else many dogs would be walking along nicely in a flat collar or a slip collar.

And, even if we concede that the dog feels "discomfort", how much discomfort do you think is OK?  I have an Aussie - their snouts are tough as soccer balls, too.  But, that doesn't mean I think it's ok to use a prong on her (she tends to be reactive).  I could try it as an experiment (not that I need to, as her clicker training in heel is going well), but the danger is that she is often a one-trial learner, as are a lot of the herding or working dogs.  So, how would you counsel someone who has a dog that could be impacted negatively by the use of a prong?  I guess what I'm asking is do you think that people should at least try the least invasive methods first?

spiritdogs

 Well, what if you are correct that the dog doesn't feel pain from the collar.  How do you explain why it works?  Pressure alone doesn't work, else many dogs would be walking along nicely in a flat collar or a slip collar.

And, even if we concede that the dog feels "discomfort", how much discomfort do you think is OK?  I have an Aussie - their snouts are tough as soccer balls, too.  But, that doesn't mean I think it's ok to use a prong on her (she tends to be reactive).  I could try it as an experiment (not that I need to, as her clicker training in heel is going well), but the danger is that she is often a one-trial learner, as are a lot of the herding or working dogs.  So, how would you counsel someone who has a dog that could be impacted negatively by the use of a prong?  I guess what I'm asking is do you think that people should at least try the least invasive methods first?

The same reason that my husband will respond to a nudge in the ribs but not when I call his name. He might be so engrossed in his online motorcycle forum that he goes deaf to the sound of my voice (the same way a sighthound goes "deaf" when a rabbit scurries by) and can even tune out a gentle tap on the shoulder, forcing me to resort to more "drastic" measures to get his attention if I really need his attention NOW.

I know, dogs are not humans and these comparisons are often flawed, but I don't think they are that far off in this case. I happen to be of the opinion that dogs can tune out human voices and even ignore gentle physical prompting if they are focused on something.

My personal style is to avoid the use of physical prompting as well as any training aids (that includes collars as well as clickers) but this has to do with the dogs I have dealt with and my personal philosophy. Heck I am big fan of behavior capture, which REALLY requires patience. I won't even use a leash to train the "come" command and I'm grateful that I have had dogs that let me do it that way. 

I posted earler in this thread that there are dogs for whom a prong would be utterly inappropriate. An I personally will always go for the least invasive method first. There are a lot of people who do not understand that training aids are not a quick fix for behavioral problems and are also not a substitute for training. But I have enough faith in general in people who post on dog forums (who IMO are not representative of JQP) that if they found it appropriate to use training aids that might cause harm to my dogs, well, until we have walked a mile in each others' shoes, I'll assume that they did right by their dogs.

Plunks 2 cents into jar. Make it 4, that was kind of long....

zircon

But I have enough faith in general in people who post on dog forums (who IMO are not representative of JQP) that if they found it appropriate to use training aids that might cause harm to my dogs, well, until we have walked a mile in each others' shoes, I'll assume that they did right by their dogs.

I just love this! I agree 100%! I know not everyone feels this way but I sure wish they did! If a regular member who posts on a dog board like this uses a prong collar with all the information available to them, I'm going to TRUST that they did the best thing for them and their dog. And beyond that, it's none of my business. I brought up trusting other members a while ago and it was basically laughed off, but this is exactly what I meant.

 Well, while I trust that members who post to dog boards generally love their dogs, I don't know that I trust their judgment all the time any more than I would trust people who post to flower boards to always know what's wrong with their plants.  Even doctors make mistakes.  What we are talking about is simple respect.  That doesn't mean that we have to shut up and not say anything if we think a member is making a mistake.  And, if no one disagreed with any of the methods we discuss, they wouldn't learn that there are people who both favor and disapprove of various techniques, including when and why.  As a dog owner, I want to know that stuff.  If others don't, instead of just insisting that everyone agree that laissez faire is good, perhaps they should be posting in other sections.  I have always valued the exchange of information, and, yes, the squabbles - had it not been for some of those, I might still have some misguided notions about some things (nutrition section used to be another hot spot LOL).  I don't think it's disrespectful to say "I think you're wrong".  I just think it's disrespectful to say it in a personal way, and make veiled references to specific members whom you don't care for because they have done just that.  If you don't get personal, and you stick to information about the topic, you really aren't going to get into too much trouble.

glenmar

But *I* am not a typical owner either, David.  How many folks do we see here on the forum who STILL believe that the best way to house "break" a dog is to rub their nose in the mistake????

I needed convincing because I am soooo strongly opposed to aversives.  I don't believe that most folks are.

I don't think that "most folks" (JQP) are any more or less opposed to aversives than many here.  We are not "better" than them, we are not gentler or holier or what have you.  We just have the advantage of information - BECAUSE we are here.  We are not here because we are in some way "better" - we are "better" because we are here!!

So, maybe I am being charitable, but I think it's more a case of ignorance.  Sometimes, that ignorance means Joe Bloggs still thinks the only way to get the dog to "be clean" is to rub his nose in it.  Sometimes it means thinking prongs are evil because of how they look.  Sometimes it means they think the prong imitates another dog's "bite" and they think the way to do it is to yank it to heck and back.  They don't ENJOY doing it.  The vast majority of dog owners IME do care for their dogs and don't enjoy causing them pain!  They have just been convinced it's the right way, and they probably believe they are being responsible because they are doing their best to ensure their dog is safe and under control.

Really, JQP is not some hideous monster that enjoys abusing animals, which is how they are sometimes made out here.  I think the media does glamourise animal abuse somewhat and it can make you feel like that's "the norm" when in truth, it's news because it's NOT the norm and that's why we are horrified by it.  In general, people own dogs because they LIKE dogs. 

Chuffy

I don't think that "most folks" (JQP) are any more or less opposed to aversives than many here.  We are not "better" than them, we are not gentler or holier or what have you.  We just have the advantage of information - BECAUSE we are here.  We are not here because we are in some way "better" - we are "better" because we are here!!

So, maybe I am being charitable, but I think it's more a case of ignorance.  Sometimes, that ignorance means Joe Bloggs still thinks the only way to get the dog to "be clean" is to rub his nose in it.  Sometimes it means thinking prongs are evil because of how they look.  Sometimes it means they think the prong imitates another dog's "bite" and they think the way to do it is to yank it to heck and back.  They don't ENJOY doing it.  The vast majority of dog owners IME do care for their dogs and don't enjoy causing them pain!  They have just been convinced it's the right way, and they probably believe they are being responsible because they are doing their best to ensure their dog is safe and under control.

Really, JQP is not some hideous monster that enjoys abusing animals, which is how they are sometimes made out here.  I think the media does glamourise animal abuse somewhat and it can make you feel like that's "the norm" when in truth, it's news because it's NOT the norm and that's why we are horrified by it.  In general, people own dogs because they LIKE dogs. 

I rarely say this if ever to anyone, but good post Chuffy.  My sentiments also.  I still say someone creditable had to tell Joe Bloggs that running a dog's nose in it works.

No, no, NO!  I'm not saying or implying that JQP is some hideous monster.  It's not KNOWING any better, and someone tells them, gee you can get a collar that will stop the dogs from barking/running/whatever.....it's just a little shock and they'll stop (pick your problem) right away.

I have never used a shock collar of any kind, but I suspect that it does NOT stop whatever behavior right away......but, if a friend, parent, child, who ever, tells someone that the shock or prong or choker WORKS RIGHT AWAY, they often fall for that hook line and sinker.

I'm not saying people are cruel, I'm saying people want the behavior they don't like to stop right away.  And they often accept someones word that X will work right away.

Chuffy

We are not "better" than them, we are not gentler or holier or what have you.  We just have the advantage of information - BECAUSE we are here.  We are not here because we are in some way "better" - we are "better" because we are here!!

Granted, we are not better than JQP because we are more educated or spend more time thinking about this. OTOH, those of us that are here have made the effort to be and involved with these discussions, which is more than much of what JQP is willing to do. As evidenced by the spouses of some here, as well as some JQP's at large, there's a few who will not change because they don't see the value. Or don't like the implication that they (the world of JQP's, in general) don't know it all. OT example. One of the gen. con. assistant supt.'s at work claimed he was once a master electrician. Bull droppings. But he's got to say it to elevate himself above us electricians. He's got to appear to know it all. And I keep my mouth shut and let him think that, which is political savvy on my part.

So, we may not be better than JQP but we are different. And hopefully, in respectful ways, we can impart information in a way that leaves them feeling good and maybe wanting to try something. And one thing we can do is educate on the prong. It may look draconian but it can be an effective tool, if less aversive methods haven't worked, so far.

On topic, I would imagine that different dogs have different levels of pain threshold. And a prong might give just some pressure to one dog and plenty o' pain to another dog. Then again, how much time are we talking about? If it is a dog that I own, I have 10 to 14 years. Or, in the case of Glenda and others here, perhaps all the time in the world doesn't mean as much as the correct effective communication to the dog. For some, that might be the prong, which is why I don't wholly condemn it, or any other corrective gear.

ron2

Granted, we are not better than JQP because we are more educated or spend more time thinking about this. OTOH, those of us that are here have made the effort to be and involved with these discussions, which is more than much of what JQP is willing to do. As evidenced by the spouses of some here, as well as some JQP's at large, there's a few who will not change because they don't see the value. Or don't like the implication that they (the world of JQP's, in general) don't know it all. OT example. One of the gen. con. assistant supt.'s at work claimed he was once a master electrician. Bull droppings. But he's got to say it to elevate himself above us electricians. He's got to appear to know it all. And I keep my mouth shut and let him think that, which is political savvy on my part.

So, we may not be better than JQP but we are different. And hopefully, in respectful ways, we can impart information in a way that leaves them feeling good and maybe wanting to try something. And one thing we can do is educate on the prong. It may look draconian but it can be an effective tool, if less aversive methods haven't worked, so far.

On topic, I would imagine that different dogs have different levels of pain threshold. And a prong might give just some pressure to one dog and plenty o' pain to another dog. Then again, how much time are we talking about? If it is a dog that I own, I have 10 to 14 years. Or, in the case of Glenda and others here, perhaps all the time in the world doesn't mean as much as the correct effective communication to the dog. For some, that might be the prong, which is why I don't wholly condemn it, or any other corrective gear.

I agree on both counts.  I think the majority of JQP loves dogs and wants the best for their dog, even if they don't know (and don't know they don't know) what that is.  There are some bad eggs, like my uncle and my brother, who refuse to change.  I actually don't let my brother interact with my dog.  He tries to wrestle with her and eventually she becomes so uncomfortable she starts air-snapping, which just eggs him on more, so he grabs her bottom jaw and taunts her since now she can't bite even if she wanted to.  People like that I don't waste my time trying to change, I just simple say you are not allowed to touch my dogs.

As for pain, I think all individual animals have different thresholds.  Humans have a huge range, and we have relatively the same structure and skin.  I competed in gymnastics for 2 years with a pinched nerve in my back while my co-worker told me she whined like a baby and insisted on prescription meds when she had a pinched nerve.  So imagine the differences between dogs, who are different breeds and have very different structure and coats.  One time Kenya was playing with Coke and another big dog and when she came in, she was bleeding in three spots (ripped a nail on a front foot, re-opened a wound on a back foot from running hard, and had some scrape on the inside of her thigh).  However, all of the dogs had the best time they've ever had and we had to force them to quit and come in.

glenmar

No, no, NO!  I'm not saying or implying that JQP is some hideous monster.  It's not KNOWING any better, and someone tells them, gee you can get a collar that will stop the dogs from barking/running/whatever.....it's just a little shock and they'll stop (pick your problem) right away.

I have never used a shock collar of any kind, but I suspect that it does NOT stop whatever behavior right away......but, if a friend, parent, child, who ever, tells someone that the shock or prong or choker WORKS RIGHT AWAY, they often fall for that hook line and sinker.

I'm not saying people are cruel, I'm saying people want the behavior they don't like to stop right away.  And they often accept someones word that X will work right away.

Yes, but most people who own dogs  DO love them and don't want to hurt them.  The prong LOOKS painful.  Therefore, their ignorance in this case is probably going to steer them AWAY from it, unless a trainer or someone convinces them that it doesn't hurt and it looks worse than it is.  Odds on anyway.

I agree with you that a lot of people do want the quick fix and they want the behaviour to stop quickly, but in this context (specifically, the use of the prong) and at this moment in time when there are dozens of devices which claim to improve your control over a dog and/or solve X behaviour, I think Joe Blogs is more likely to pick a less "evil looking" product.

I think there was not the range of products available when you needed to do something with Thor? 

ron2

Granted, we are not better than JQP because we are more educated or spend more time thinking about this. OTOH, those of us that are here have made the effort to be and involved with these discussions, which is more than much of what JQP is willing to do.

Perhaps  a topic for another thread, but I challenge you to tell the dog owners you know about this forum.  I bet many of them would look in here!  I can think of at least THREE people, just in my family, who own dogs and would definately come here if they knew about the place.

 As Liesje said, there are SOME people who are just bad eggs, and maybe I am just being naive in believing that these folks are the exception and not the rule....

Chuffy

Perhaps  a topic for another thread, but I challenge you to tell the dog owners you know about this forum.  I bet many of them would look in here!

The people I know wouldn't. I don't know a lot of dog people (hence why I'm here. ), but..there's four close to me (two sisters, an aunt, and an uncle), and not one of them would be interested in coming here. I've tried to get my sisters interested, but to no avail.

Am I a better person than them because I educate myself about dogs? No, not a better person, but I do think it makes me a better dog owner. I'm not saying I love my dog more (I don't know how you could possibly quantify love), but more devoted, more caring, more committed? Yeah, I definitely am.

The Easy Walk wasn't available yet as I recall.  I had used both the GL and the halti and that was impossible...both made him buck like a danged stallion, I did NOT want to use a choker, and I think those were the only choices at that point.  Those were the only ones suggested here, so they must have been.

I'm not saying people are cruel, I'm saying people want the behavior they don't like to stop right away.  And they often accept someones word that X will work right away.

I totally agree that most people don't want to hurt their dogs, but if someone does manage to convince them that a device works, and they try it and it works, often they will close their minds to other devices and hold on to that one, because it worked.  Glenda is not one of those people.  She understands that for many dogs there are other things, perhaps less invasive, that work equally well.  And, to be honest, I think she's openminded enough to try a suggestion for herself if she thinks it has merit.  The issue that I have always had with prongs, and other pain-inducing (or discomfort - thanks Ron for pointing out the pain threshold issue - spot on) devices, is that they should not be one's first choice, rather they should be employed when less invasive methods have failed.  And, as all devices, they are not a substitute for training, though I know that many well trained dogs go in these devices anyway for "insurance" purposes.  Being arthritic, I understand that someone may want to walk a dog in more than a flat collar even if the dog rarely, if ever, misbehaves.  But, just in the name of equipment being very specific to the dog, I will tell you that Sequoyah did not do all that well in a Gentle Leader, but does phenomenally well in a Snoot Loop.  Minor difference in the construction of a very similar device made all the difference in the world.  And, while she is a well behaved dog that will stay right with me, I prefer to be able to control her herdiness in close quarters, should she decide to make an error about whether something is threatening me or not and I am being inattentive at that moment (herdy and guardy, just like the breed standard says...).  So, there are nuances to every piece of equipment. For example, the small link prongs hurt more than the large link ones, yet many people who walk a pain-insensitive large breed dog insist on the large links when the smaller ones would be more effective.