Kicking the dog

Chuffy

BlackLabbie

BlackLabbie

Rhetorical: Is your dog dangerous?  Do you really think he would attack a child of you didn't correct him? 

My dog doesn't do anything even mildy aggressive toward children ever. BUT, if he ever you you bet he's getting a correction.

 

I apologise.  The context of your post made it sound like you need to issue corrections to a) have a dog that is safe and b) rehab a dog that is not safe.  Both of these notions are incorrect.

So if you are not currently using corrections in an attempt to fix aggression, what are you using them for?  And would you consider it acceptable to foot-tap the dog if corrections weren't working?  Do you try using positive methods first and if not why not?

spiritdogs - I agree with you re the prong.  It's my understanding also that prongs should not be used for corrections.  But lots and lots of people DO use them that way and here didn't really seem like the place to mention it.  I was thinking of maybe starting a new thread.... any takers? 

No need to apologize!! We used the corrections/prong collar to teach loose leash and not to jump up on people when they come into our house- worked great, but neither of these were aggressive, just bad manners. Yes, in certain cases if all you have is your body and your dog is trying to attack someone/thing/animal then foot tap is fine IMO. Notice I didn't say kick, slap, or anything like. But, if all you have is your own body then I think a foot tap is OK. A foot tap will not kill your dog, or you, and if you nudge your dog you won't break it's bones....How many of us have accidentally stepped on our dog? I know I have. And he yelped, but he was OK, and he let's my feet/hands go near him still without any issues. I didn't need to rush him to the vets, and he still lays in the same spot I stepped on him; beside my bed.

And I think starting a thread on the pros and cons of a prong collar would be a great idea.

sillysally

I have a friend with a highly aggressive St. Bernard.  This dog was raised on corrections.  He has been yelled at, smacked on the nose, jerked around, "tapped" with various body parts, smacked with a leash, etc.  The thought process of "he's big, he can take it" and "need to show him who's boss" was behind the way he was raised.  However, he has grown into an extremely dangerous dog who has become nearly impossible to handle.  He has one bite on his record, but has bitten several people.  His favorite targets seem to be children outside his own family, black people of all ages, pretty much everyone that he does not know and occasionally some that he knows but does not like.  This dog is most definitely corrected when he shows aggression yet he continues to get worse.    

Well, this is where I think common sense needs to come into play. To  my, it obviously sounds like the dog is being abused; yelled at, smacked, jerked around, smacked with a leash. These are in no way corrections any more; they're people playing out their frustration on their dog. If he is getting "corrected" (IMO, it's abuse) why don't the change methods of training? Maybe this is a case where positive training could've made all the difference.

Yes, Ron, and my adventures in trying to maintain an upright stance is exactly why I don't own a video camera.  Someone MIGHT decide to turn it on me and use it against me!

I used leash corrections to stop two bad behaviors, jumping on people and chasing my cat around the couch.  Both of which stopped quickly, less than two weeks and I have never had a need to use a leash correction again.  Actually the truth is that jumping on people who enter my home was truly eliminated when I taught him an alternative behavior which was to run to his crate.  That was a freak accident that worked well after the behaviorist taught us how to stop him from jumping on visitors cars when they pulled down my drive.  I taught him to run to the porch at the site of car, it worked so well that I started to teach him to run to his crate when my son (then 4) would enter a room.  Given my dog at 10 months (all 110 lb puppy) would charge and chase my 4 year old out of excitement.  Within no time he would run to his crate at the site of the child.  I then thought why don't I use this as people enter my house, it worked beautifully.  To this day, he often starts for his crate when people come to visit, but most times I call him right back unless it is a child who tends to be scared of a dog three times their size. 

That training took place at 10 months old he is now 3.5!  All the other wonderful behaviors were taught positively solid and reliable sit, down and come.  Now with maturity a simple att att stops all.

I taught loose leach walking using a prong, no corrections at the advise of both my behaviorist.  A simple tug if necessary but no quick snaps with the prong. Resource guarding was solved by management and teaching the dog not be threatened, I am the giver not the taker.  Everything else, all the wonderful thing my dog does that gets him so much notoriety with friends and family were taught positively.

Both my behaviorist were clear, using aggression on an aggressive dog only make the aggression worse.  When you agress on aggression the normal animal instinct is to protect themselves and they only know one way of doing that.

I am not apposed, obviously, in using corrections but don't understand why some people have been using them for ever and have so many behaviors that need correcting??   Another thread perhaps, but for what reasons would you use a leash correction?  And for how long before you found it ineffective?

corvus

So no, there's no way I'd ever kick a dog to save it from being PTS. Because in that case at least, it actually made PTS necessary where it hadn't been before. There's no way I'd ever stand back and let someone frighten or hurt my dog and say "it's okay, this is saving her life". It's not okay. Not ever. They're animals and they don't understand. It doesn't fix them and make the aggression go away. It just teaches them that people are dangerous and unpredictable and they're right to not trust them.

This is interesting, because I have made the opposite choice. With Ivan. I do fully admit he wasn't totally normal in the head, and Ivan seemed to believe that might makes right from the time he was tiny. One of the things that was wrong with him is that he never responded fully to socialization.  He didn't have trust to break.

So when push came to shove, and he was seriously hurting Sasha and capable of seriously hurting the humans in the family (not to mention strangers) we did chose to work with a trainer who administered STRONG corrections. He was also sensitive to Ivan's reactions, and careful and precise in his use of physical corrections. His help gave Ivan another year and a half of life. Eventually yes, we had him PTS. But that last year and a half was a pretty happy time for him. He was crazy, but not miserable! If we had lived without another dog and without a child, the training style we adopted would probably allowed Ivan to live to old age.

So I can't say that what we did would be the best for an average dog with problems. Ivan was calmer after we instituted "you obey or we correct the heck out of you." It was a philosophy he understood, and the one he lived by. Sadly.

I don't believe in life at any cost, but I also don't believe in gentleness at any cost. You have to weigh each situation, and evaluate where the line should be. 

luvmyswissy

I am not apposed, obviously, in using corrections but don't understand why some people have been using them for ever and have so many behaviors that need correcting??   Another thread perhaps, but for what reasons would you use a leash correction?  And for how long before you found it ineffective?

Great idea for a thread. Do you want to start it or shall I? 

Edit to add - great post entirely actually IMO.  I think it sounds like you used leash corrections to stop him chasing the cat and everything else was taught using positive reinforcement, a little negative reinforcement (the prong), management and teaching alternative behaviours (again, PR). I'd be really interested if you could share HOW you taught him to run to his crate when guests come.  I think that's a useful behaviour, especially for large and/or bouncy dogs.

A bit OT, but I also recall that you attempted to use PR to stop the cat chasing as well and only resorted to corrections when that didn't work.  Now, I SUSPECT that may have been because you came in a little late with redirecting, so the dog learned: "chase the cat, stop chasing the cat, get the reward" rather than "avoid chasing the cat, get the reward".  But I could be wrong.  It happened once before....

What I am trying to say here, in a roundabout way, is that you have shown beautifully how little corrections can be used with a "normal" dog.

Dogma - No offence to Ivan, but you say he wasn't normal in the head... it follows that what may have worked beautifully for HIM is still not likely to be applicable for the vast majority of normal pets. I mean, we're not gonna say "hey it worked for Ivan so I'll try it on Fido!"  Unless of course "Fido" is a nutcase as well...

Dog_ma

I don't believe in life at any cost, but I also don't believe in gentleness at any cost. You have to weigh each situation, and evaluate where the line should be. 

I think that sums it up in a nut shell.  I lean more to the "gentleness at any cost" than the "life at any cost".  Perhaps yet ANOTHER thread subject, but I think it would be interesting to see a show of hands to see roughly whereabouts on this spectrum each of us fall... I appreciate with most it will be SOMEWHERE in the middle, but I think it will lean more one way for most people.

Chuffy

Dogma - No offence to Ivan, but you say he wasn't normal in the head... it follows that what may have worked beautifully for HIM is still not likely to be applicable for the vast majority of normal pets. I mean, we're not gonna say "hey it worked for Ivan so I'll try it on Fido!"  Unless of course "Fido" is a nutcase as well...

Oh, I know. Which is why I'm not here saying "Correct your dogs! It works!" What worked on Ivan worked on Ivan, and I will be the first to say it is a bad idea to generalize his behavior to all dogs. I talk about it, because I find it all very interesting and writing out stuff helps me think. 

I should also note that the corrections we used with Ivan were, with the exception of the initial ones give by the trainer while Ivan was frantically lunging at another dog, given to *stop* a behavior. They were given to convince him to obey a command he was ignoring. And I know there is the whole business of "maybe he didn't understand the command" but we were limited and precise and lo, he got with the program very very quickly.  Believe me, if other motivations had worked we would have used them. We tried!

I was not 'lucky' my dog didn't make contact during an air snap. She's 12 years old and she's never made contact during an air snap, to dogs or other animals, or humans, so the odds are stacked in our favour. She has always been an air-snapper and I couldn't count the number of times she's snapped at another dog. But I like the air-snap. It's a warning and a really good, but safe one. I know she'll always air snap first and I know she'll never make contact because she always has air-snapped first and has never made contact. The whole point of air-snapping is to avoid the need for contact. And she adores children. She just freaks a bit when she thinks their fingers are heading for her eyes. I make sure kids that pat her know to stay away from her eyes and we're all happy. I make sure the kids' parents know that she's not bomb-proof so they can decide if they don't want their kids patting her. They always do because she's such a sweetie pie.

Keep your dog away from kids. If she "adores" them then why does she snap at them? A warning is a low growl; a snap is an attempt. My dog loves people, how do I know? He wags his tail when people come toward him, he looks happy, and he doesn't growl or snap. If you told me "my dog tries to bite" I would NEVER in a million trillion years allow my own child (if I had any) to go near your dog. And I do think your lucky, if your dog snapped at my little brother and you just said "Oh well, that's just what she does"....oh boy, now there would be a scene.

BlackLabbie

Keep your dog away from kids. If she "adores" them then why does she snap at them? A warning is a low growl; a snap is an attempt. My dog loves people, how do I know? He wags his tail when people come toward him, he looks happy, and he doesn't growl or snap. If you told me "my dog tries to bite" I would NEVER in a million trillion years allow my own child (if I had any) to go near your dog. And I do think your lucky, if your dog snapped at my little brother and you just said "Oh well, that's just what she does"....oh boy, now there would be a scene.

No, in dogs an air snap is a warning. Not an attempt to bite.  

My dog loves children, but she will "correct" children (or anyone) if she thinks they are being rude. I know this, so I keep an eagle on her and kids that she interacts with. But she LOVES kids. Brightens up, seeks them out, wag wag lick lick.

I don't take air snaps lightly. Human flesh is more delicate than dog fur, and the chance of a child getting hurt isn't something I'm thrilled with. 

I don't take air snaps lightly either. Hence my special care to let the kiddies know how to pat her safely. But I know my dog and I have a pretty solid idea of what an air snap means for her. It's not an attack. She has exceptional control. She's an old hand, and she never even gets close to making contact. I don't shrug it off when she does it by any means, but nor am I going to punish her for telling a kid she strongly doesn't like something without touching the kid. The absolute last time I'm going to punish any animal is when they're trying to tell us all something. I highly value communication, even the vehement kind. Especially the vehement kind. I'd rather she tell me than just go ahead and take care of it herself. It's not like she's snapping at every kid that looks sideways at her. She's snapped at a child a grand total of twice in her entire life. The parents of the children were present both times and had been supervising as well and both times gently told their children that Penny doesn't it like it when you put your fingers near her eyes. Pat her nicely, like this. If I kept her away from kids she woudn't have had a chance to show my cousin's little boy who was afraid of dogs before Christmas that some dogs are nice and friendly.

Don't worry, you will never be inflicted with my sweet-as-pie old corgi that has dedicated her life to being as cute as possible to get people to pat her. If you'd met her you'd probably be laughing at this conversation. Go look at some of the videos of her acting up in the behavioural interpretation thread.

BlackLabbie

Keep your dog away from kids. If she "adores" them then why does she snap at them? A warning is a low growl; a snap is an attempt. My dog loves people, how do I know? He wags his tail when people come toward him, he looks happy, and he doesn't growl or snap. If you told me "my dog tries to bite" I would NEVER in a million trillion years allow my own child (if I had any) to go near your dog. And I do think your lucky, if your dog snapped at my little brother and you just said "Oh well, that's just what she does"....oh boy, now there would be a scene.

BlackLabbie, some dogs DONt growl.  They air snap instead, or lift a lip, or use a "look".  The air snap is not the sign of a dog who is dangerous. Its the opposite!  Because the more "warning signs" the dog has at his disposal, the LESS likely he is going to be pushed to bite!  The air snap is just another warning sign.  Its not "luck" that the dog doesnt connect.  If the dog wanted to connect, she would have done.  An air snap is TOTALLY different from a "snap".  Its very important to understand that.

Edit to add - I adore my son.  I love him dearly.  But do you think I will sit placidly while he pokes at my eyes?  Of course not.  I will say "Dont do that, I do not like it."  Why should a dog do any less?