What does a positive trainer do when a dog bites?

There are certainly dogs that try to control their owners' movements.  I knew of a Poodle that would only do this at night (she wouldn't let her elderly owner out of the bedroom).  And, owner-directed aggression is common in the case of displaced herding behavior, too.  I agree with the poster who said call a behaviorist and have a complete assessment.  Wrong advice in the case of aggression can magnify problems.

Thanks for all the comments. My question is not about the treatment afterwards, but what you would do when the dog actually bit you? That's the hard bit by my way of thinking. I think a few years ago I asked this question in relation to the puppy that my family had. I had pinned him, having already made the mistake of triggering an aggressive response. Lots of people had some great non-confrontational ideas, but I confess I was never entirely convinced that I shouldn't have done something to prevent his aggressive behaviour from even being considered as a potential option that might work in the future. Mind you, that was that dog and in a similar situation. I guess the more I think about this the more confused I get. On the one hand there are loads of scenarios in which a dog might bite me and I would retreat, ignore, or go for a temporary management option, but I think if I were faced with that puppy today and I made the same mistake and had a 3kg ball of fury trying to bite me I'd do the same thing I did the first time.

Anyway, the more people I ask the more varied the responses. I think perhaps there is no right or wrong answer. We all agree that a fearful dog shouldn't be punished, but a few folks have had pushy dogs behaving obnoxiously that they have ignored or used a social punishment on to sort it out. I'm a bit torn, because on the one hand I think the consequences for misinterpreting aggressive behaviour as something other than fear (which I believe that the vast majority of aggressive behaviour is driven by) and punishing when the dog is afraid are potentially huge. I have seen aggression driven by territoriality punished and it served only to escalate the aggression to new heights and obsessiveness. So it seems safest to say don't punish any behaviour that looks aggressive. I'm still bothered by this idea of making a mistake and getting bitten and essentially rewarding it by backing off, though. If we follow Lindsay's idea of behaviour strengthening when the outcome is as expected or even more so, do we run the risk of strengthening a behaviour that we very badly don't want? All this is assuming it wasn't a serious all out attack, though. Just an isolated bite that doesn't break the skin. Any worse than that and I think it all goes out the window and the priority becomes keeping everyone safe.

Jason L

When I took Ike to a seminar in April, Ike bit Michael Ellis, the person giving the seminar, during one session. We were doing leash pressure work and at first Ike did not know how to turn off the pressure so he bit. When he bit Ellis, Ellis did not even look up. He didn't say anything to Ike like "No" or "Stop". Instead he just kept on working with Ike as though nothing happened. Afterward he said the quickest way to extinguish this kind of behavior is to not acknowledge it, to act unimpressed (so unimpressed that you didn't even feel the need to give it a response) and not let it stop you from what you are doing.

 

I am far from an experienced dog handler, though that is a method that I have used on numerous other animals outside of dogs.  I often keep and handle critters that are for lack of better terms far less domesticated than dogs.  Biting often comes as part of the territory and with many it is expected at one point they are going to decide to test you and see if they can boss and control your handling/interacting with them through biting.  Usually the quickest way to make the behavior extinct is to completely ignore and not give into the biting.  Even with less domesticated critters I am still amazed at how much inhibition most animals show.  It is very rare in these scenarios to find one that intends to try and get its way by full out biting and lashing out with all its force.  I can easily see using this method on a pushy puppy that is going to through the mouthy stage and testing the waters to see what sort of reaction nipping gets him/her. 

Of course when it comes to ignoring it can be a big difference between say ignoring a pushy hamster or bird versus a 60 plus pound dog.  Dogs are some of the largest predators humans routinely bring into our homes.  You can also plan all you want but when things happen you aren't expecting there is no telling what your instinctual reaction will be.  I often think of a video I saw, where on Halloween a person was dressed up so they looked like they were a prop and scarring all the people coming up to reach for candy in the bowl left nearby.  Most people when startled by him would jump back or scream.  One guy however instinctively lashed out clocked the trickster with a hard punch to the face.

When it comes to the bite it is impossible for me to state exactly what I would do because there are so many different scenarios and factors.  At the core, I hope I would remain calm and show as little reaction to the initial bite itself.

corvus

I'm still bothered by this idea of making a mistake and getting bitten and essentially rewarding it by backing off, though.

I can see what you are saying.  I think if in the heat of the moment I could think clearly enough-the best way I know  to handle it would be to remain calm, ask for whatever behavior you initially wanted again--almost as if he just didn't give the right comman or ignored the command--then walk away.  Or, if you never really asked for a behavior initially, I would ask for one then, anything, and then walk away. 

willowchow

corvus

I'm still bothered by this idea of making a mistake and getting bitten and essentially rewarding it by backing off, though.

I can see what you are saying.  I think if in the heat of the moment I could think clearly enough-the best way I know  to handle it would be to remain calm, ask for whatever behavior you initially wanted again--almost as if he just didn't give the right comman or ignored the command--then walk away.  Or, if you never really asked for a behavior initially, I would ask for one then, anything, and then walk away. 

 

The problem with wanting that human "last word" at the moment is that you don't really yet know what you are dealing with, and you can't train a dog that is not in a receptive frame of mind - think how hard it might be for you to do schoolwork five seconds after you broke your mother's favorite vase and she is telling you to go to your room.  Even if it was an accident, there are brain chemicals at work that might prevent you from having the ability to relax, concentrate on your work, and learn.  If the dog that just bit you is one that is seeking a confrontation, then even a brief moment of eye contact might elicit even more aggression from him.  If you make noise, a predatory dog in predatory mode might bite you more to "kill" the squealy thing.  If you turn away as you leave a herding breed that bites, you may get yet another "cheap shot" in your buttocks.  The time to try to issue a cue for behavior is before the dog bites - some dogs have actually been dissuaded from an attack by having the purported victim say "Sit!"  Turning your body to the side shows a biting dog that you are not intending to engage in a fight, and does NOT indicate that you are giving in, simply that your intention is peaceful.  The reason for remaining calm and still is that dogs do not have long attention spans, and you can defuse the situation nicely, in many cases, just by just waiting.  Movement can engage some dogs to bite again, especially some of the herding or working breeds whose hard-wired job it is to stop motion. 

spiritdogs

The problem with wanting that human "last word" at the moment is that you don't really yet know what you are dealing with, and you can't train a dog that is not in a receptive frame of mind - think how hard it might be for you to do schoolwork five seconds after you broke your mother's favorite vase and she is telling you to go to your room. 

I can see what you are saying Anne.  That's why I thought just remaining calm and trying to get the attention onto something else like a "sit" or whatever would be the way to distract her from the situation and be able to move on.  Also, honestly, I wouldn't -and this is JMO, I wouldn't be trying to train at this moment per se, just get out of the situation.

This wasn't about Willow, but I know with her if she's in a certain mode of thinking it will just escalate unless you distact her.  Like for example, she sees one of the cats, she starts whining, then grumbling, then growling with lunging.  And, the only why I've found that I can break that chain is to mention something else that might make her go, "What?  Ride?  When?"  And, the cat leaves her focus.  So, I'm thinking if she was in a "bite" mindset and I didn't do something--and I"m not talking punishing or yelling here--to break her focus, she'd probably bite me again within seconds. 

The only other thing I could think of that might work with her is to have my husband remove her from the room with me.  But, most of the time it's just her and I. 

So, assuming the incident has already happened what should be done. 

I think you can be calm and not over-react without actually backing down or giving the dog a win.  In the example I gave with Nikon, once he bit he held on until I got there to correctly remove him and the helper did not really do or say anything, just held Nikon's collar with his other hand and stared at him calmly.  There was no attack or vocalization or thrashing from the dog, no fight from the helper.  Once I got Nikon off, we just kept on going with what we had been working on.  It wasn't like the helper shook him off and walked away, but he didn't scream or struggle either.  In the dog's mind it was a draw.  The bite didn't get him the result he thought it would.  We kept right on with what we'd been doing getting the correct result with the dog being appropriately rewarded.

spiritdogs

Turning your body to the side shows a biting dog that you are not intending to engage in a fight, and does NOT indicate that you are giving in, simply that your intention is peaceful. 

That's a good point. I see Kivi do this in a lot of different situations. Sometimes I think I should get a WWKTD (what would Kivi Tarro do?) bracelet. He handles everything without confrontation. Mind you, sometimes Erik and he get into "slap fights" where they bite each other just enough to be more annoying than fun or painful. If anyone's going to get over-aroused and start biting too hard it's Erik. Kivi just cries. It doesn't seem to work very well. Although I guess it prompts me to say "Erik, leave your brother alone." and he'll settle down. I can see what you're saying Willowchow. Not a matter of giving a command for training, but looking for something the dog might respond to automatically that will lower their arousal and distract them. Gray Stafford in his book Zoomility talks about a Walrus with a very low frustration threshold that would try to nail someone with his tusks if they accidentally annoyed him. He had some very strong behaviours like go still for an exam that they could always fall back on. He'd stop an attack short if someone cued an incompatible behaviour, but it generally had to come from someone other than the person he was cross with. So they always worked with him with a couple of spotters.

Also, my friend used to work for a large shelter. Someone dropped off a couple of Danes into the surgery one night. One of the workers went in to get them on leash and move them, not realising they were aggressive and assuming they weren't because in their experience Danes were usually pretty good. They saw her and flew at her and both of them were biting her multiple times. She covered her face with her arms and just stood there, not even flinching or making a sound. The dogs quickly stopped biting because they weren't getting any reaction and then she was able to restrain them. She was not badly injured, but she never again assumed a dog was not aggressive.

corvus

The dog does not growl or snarl at the owner

Is it possible that the dog had, at some point, had warning signs trained out of it?  Plenty of people hear a dog growl and find a way to make it stop (sometimes with harsh corrections but sometimes just with a sharp no or some other indication that they don't want the dog to in some way).  Usually when a dog escalates to a bite without going through a growl or anything else, it's because the warnings have been somehow extinguished.

For me, it's hard to imagine my dog biting me for anything.  She's confident and happy, not a resource guarder, and does not even growl at kids when they use her fur to pull themselves up.  If she DID bite me, I think the first thing I would do would shout OUCH or some other four-letter word.  I would be surprised and hurt and angry.  I'd probably cry.  I know, nothing that would help the situation but I can just imagine my reaction.  Then I would probably walk away from her and ignore her completely, go clean up the wound and see how bad it was (or, if it wasn't that bad, just go into a room away from her until I've calmed down). 

Then I would attempt to analyze exactly what happened.  Likely, if I couldn't see anything that caused the action, a vet appointment would be set up ASAP.  Frequently dogs who bite out of the blue do so because of a medical problem: pain, neurological issues, etc.  I'd want to rule out every single possibility before approaching it from a behavioral standpoint.

From there, it would depend on what the vet found.  Nothing?  Then I would have to spend a lot more time trying to figure out what was going on that caused her to bite.  And I very well might call in a very good behaviorist if I felt unqualified to work with it myself.  I would probably look for some answers in the book Pam Dennison wrote called Bringing Light to Shadow as my dog is very soft and I think a lot of the things she did with her dog might help Dahlia.

And, again, I think there is a preconception that +R trainers don't punish or that amateurs such as myself solve everything by throwing treats. Well, I do throw treats, unabashedly, but at the right times.

Never allow what you don't want, ever. Our friend, B, had a Great Pyrenees named Lilli. She got her as a litter pup from a breeder. And never allowed Lilli on the sofa. Even as a cute ball of fluff. Why? Mainly because Lilli, just like her parents, grew to be 34 inches tall and about 140 lbs. Too much dog for her sofa. Eventually, she re-homed her to a sheep ranch and she has taken to the life like a, well, like a guardian dog that is the nature of her breed.

I would do what it takes to get the dog off the sofa without harming or threatening the dog. And then institute rules and alternate behaviors that prevent the dog from getting back on the sofa until such time, if ever, I think it's okay. That is, if I have to lure the dog off with a treat, so be it. And then see to it that listening to what I say is the greatest thing. If I wanted a wolf following his own instincts, then I would get one. (Not really.  I like wolves and they are wild and should stay that way and I won't have one on my couch.) But I don't think grabbing the dog by the scruff will accomplish anything. Swatting the dog is likely to either make the dog run away or bite again. The dog has to understand that it is not okay to bite humans. Unless, of course, one is training a police dog or Schutzhund but, even then, those are bites under certain circumstances within the job of the dog.

 +R trainers are just as capable of "corrections." It's just how and when we use them. By not allowing the dog on the couch, you are denying them a resource they want. And they have to earn it. Is that "unnatural"? Great, color me unnatural. That's me, the control freak. From the first time we had Shadow, we had no problems or compunctions against telling him to move. So, that has been the rule of the house since he has been here. Associative learning, without any treats. So, if he's in my spot, I say "move" and he moves. He still gets space on the couch and is not losing anything and neither am I.

 

I guess I am still confused by the question, as well, Corvus.

What would one do in response to any bite? It depends on the context of the situation.

Shadow bit me, once. And yes, it broke skin and I think he stress fractured the big knuckle of my right index finger because it took a little over 3 weeks for that joint to quit aching. I've had broken bones before and am familiar with the ache over time.

When he was much younger, I was wanting to trim his nails but he wouldn't let me near his paws. I took him to the vet to have him sedated. By the time I got home, I had to carry him in. After about 5 more minutes, he was completely out. So, I trimmed his nails. And got the quick on a few of them. I called the vet and he said I should apply direct pressure. So, I used gauze and surgical tape and "bandaged" him. After a while, he started coming out of it. When he could stand, he wanted to get some water. But the bandages were coming lose and I didn't want him chewing on them and maybe swallowing them. So, I reached around his left side with my right hand to try and wiggle the loose bandages off. In the blink of an eye, he bit, not all the way through, and held it for a moment. I used cursive language. He let go and went back to drinking water.

I did not strike him or holler at him, not even "bad dog." I let him be and went and rinsed with hot water and iodine. Then called the vet back to see if I was in any danger of infection. We don't have rabies here and I always keep his shots up.

This was not a case of resource guarding or being "alpha." This was a case of me being a blithering idiot. He was groggy and maybe just a little sore. Not seeing me, he had no idea what was messing with his paws and reacted, perhaps, the same way he might against a buzzing fly that his pestering him. After I bandaged myself up, I was rubbing his head and his belly and succeeded getting the stupid bandages off with light swipes of my fingers across his paw.

He has never bitten me since then. It was not a behavioral issue, unless you want to count me as behaving like an idiot.

So, in that context, I did nothing.