Debunking "ecollar studies" - Janeen McMurtrie "See no evil, read no evil, cite no evil"

corvus

Thanks Liesje. I understand that there are a lot of uses for e-collars and situations in which they might be useful, but for the purposes of this discussion about using them in behaviour modification, I don't think it necessarily falls into any of those categories you mentioned. If, as was said, the training is so good, then why couldn't you achieve the behaviour modification with the vibration setting alone, for example? Someone recently told me that some dogs find the vibration more aversive than the stim, but that aside.

I can't really answer that since I haven't and wouldn't use an e-collar (or vibration collar unless it was a marker) for behavior modification, only training.  To me the example of the rattlesnake avoidance is training, not behavior mod.  I don't see the purpose in using this tool for things like fear aggression, over reacting to other dogs, straight up aggression, etc.  I can think of a dozen or so uses for an e-collar in my training (I do not use one, but I could), but behavior mod in general isn't one of them.  But since I train my own dogs rather than have clientele with "problem" dogs coming to me, I don't do hardly any behavior mod, I get a dog with the temperament I want and train from there or use management if there is a behavior or temperament problem.  I can't really speak to what tools are best for dealing with temperament issues and unwanted behaviors.

spiritdogs

why you would wait until a dog does go over threshold

The threshold for me would be a point of no return, where like Kim says, the ecollar would make the dog to release the adrenaline and be more aggressive, the trick is doing it before the threshold

spiritdogs

Why not just time your reinforcement to coincide with his first glimpse of the other dog?

Thats an easy one, because i dont want to. I rather in this situation to correct him. And while you are trying to feed the dog from far away I am already walking them together.

espencer

spiritdogs

why you would wait until a dog does go over threshold

 

The threshold for me would be a point of no return, where like Kim says, the ecollar would make the dog to release the adrenaline and be more aggressive, the trick is doing it before the threshold

 

spiritdogs

Why not just time your reinforcement to coincide with his first glimpse of the other dog?

 

Thats an easy one, because i dont want to. I rather in this situation to correct him. And while you are trying to feed the dog from far away I am already walking them together.

OK, so can you post a video of that so we can all see your technique in action?  It would be really nice to have you show that from start to finish, showing the dog's initial reaction to another dog, then progressing through the training.  You say you have mastered these techniques so well - thus, it would be a shame not to share them.  Who knows, you might get your own TV show someday, or at least a big Youtube channel.

The "threshold" is the point of no return?  That's not what a "threshold" is, unless you have your own definition that is the opposite of everyone else's.  The point of no return is past the threshold.

I guess I am still utterly confused by espencer's application of the e-collar.  I still have no idea what "level 1" aggression refers to or why a "threshold" is defined as the point of no return.  It makes more sense to just say you let the dog react and then correct him for it.

spiritdogs

OK, so can you post a video

I swear i knew you were going to say that! I was "i bet she will now ask for a video to prove it" and then i thought about what my answer would be:

"I'm sorry but i dont go around video taping every interaction i have with a dog. If you want to see a video of how to do it you can watch Victoria Stillwell, she has walked 2 dogs that have been aggressive towards eachother the same day and she didnt use a lot of treats, you can also watch that other dude that you dont like as well".

Then you might add the whole "editing of TV shows" but i swear thats how it works.

Listen. It does not really matter the way i explain it to you or even matter if i show you a video on how to do it, the bottom line is that you are not going to like it regardless. So i will save my time and energy.

Liesje

It makes more sense to just say you let the dog react and then correct him for it.

I guess the use of the ecollar would depend on the dog, level of aggression, distance between dogs, the other dog's reaction, my reaction when i realize we might have a situation. etc. etc. etc.

Too many variables to consider to give you an answer on how i would use an ecollar in a situation like that. Usually i just need a leash and thats it.

 I'm only asking because you initially brought it up....but, nevermind.

Liesje

 I'm only asking because you initially brought it up....but, nevermind.

What Liesje said.   So much for rational discussion.

corvus

miranadobe

corvus

I have personally seen a dog that reacted to the application of an aversive whilst being aggressive become more aggressive.

You don't say ecollar, so I assume it was something else.  Using an ecollar does not always mean an application of an aversive. 

Then why use an ecollar at all? If it's the training and not the tool, then why train with an ecollar at all? Presumably you could get the same effect with a conditioned positive interruptor, for example.

As for whatever the heck Level 1 aggression is supposed to mean, I have no idea - but it doesn't seem applicable to ecollar discussion, so start a new thread if you want to continue that discussion, thanks.