Debunking "ecollar studies" - Janeen McMurtrie "See no evil, read no evil, cite no evil"

Then again, most of the ecollar companies themselves state openly on their pages that aggression should not be treated through ecollar use.

From Dogtra's website (http://www.dogtra.com/) under Product Safety:

From Tritronics in the FAQ section:

Aggression in dogs has many causes. Social dominance, fearfulness, learned behavior, and physical problems, as well as other factors can all be involved. In some cases aggression can be successfully treated with a Remote Trainer, following the proper procedure. In other cases, however, correcting the aggressive dog with a Remote Trainer is not appropriate and will not be successful.

The point is, for the one study (to say "the study" indicates it's the one, the only, the all-knowing....which we know in science that one study never has all the answers) that says that ecollars do not make dogs more aggressive, there are others that says that it can, and does, and just as many behaviourists who say it will as there will say it won't.

I'm not arguing that it does or it doesn't, I read all the studies, and have come to a conclusion based on all of them rather than on one alone, rather I'm just commenting on the idea in general that once again it's "just one study" and on its own doesn't necessarily have all the answers. It is the mass consensus of several studies (replicable is the key word) that will give the most insight into the behavioural fallout of ecollar use.

And just in case there is any confusion, the APA in no way actually has anything to do with the ecollar study directly. The website is simply a place for all psych scholarly journals to share studies. It is the journal itself (Journal of Experimental Psychology) that accepts studies, the APA itself did no decision-making. PsycNET is the same as PubMed, the medical/biological database of journals.

Interesting, I'll read it more closely later.  However I kinda agree with Kim, I don't really see the value of an e-collar for behavior mod, and I don't really think aggression can be "cured", as a dog is either aggressive (as part of it's temperament) or it is fearful and thus acts aggressive (also part of it's temperament).  I think the idea that the tool itself (ANY tool) "makes" a dog "more aggressive" is laughable.  It would be far more interesting and valuable to me to see quantitative studies with e-collars simply used as training tools, not to supposedly manufacture or cure aggression.

Kim_MacMillan

The website is simply a place for all psych scholarly journals to share studies. It is the journal itself (Journal of Experimental Psychology) that accepts studies, the APA itself did no decision-making. PsycNET is the same as PubMed, the medical/biological database of journals.

Thanks, I wasn't trying to confuse anyone there, but just in case, thanks for that note.

Kim_MacMillan

commenting on the idea in general that once again it's "just one study" and on its own doesn't necessarily have all the answers.

"While I understand that the literature can be (and often is) cherry-picked to support preconceived notions even in peer-reviewed studies, I am absolutely stunned by the dog world’s shunning of Tortora’s work. His article is very rarely cited in recent studies related to ecollars, aversives, dog training and aggression — and when it is, it is not unusual for him to be misquoted or taken out of context. (details on that below the break)

Given the outstanding success Tortora had in rehabilitating aggressive dogs and the fact that his article appeared in a well-known journal published by the American Psychological Association, why are studies published by Schalke, Schindler and Herron (and opinion pieces written by Pat Miller) touted as landmark studies on e-collar use while his work languishes in anonymity."

I think it's because there's a bias that says "shock" = "abuse", because for some of us, that word is tied up with a negative connotation in even human psychology that really does mean abuse.  The author further ids that:  "Using e-collars to train dogs is a controversial and emotionally-charged issue. This is largely because, as Steven Lindsay writes:

… the word shock is loaded with biased connotations, images of convulsive spasms and burns, and implications associated with extreme physical pain, emotional trauma, physiological collapse, and laboratory abuses."

 

Consider, one of the studies touted says: "The electric shocking device used was a high-voltage system, one second shock, different for each dog according to the dog’s reaction at each interval. The level of shock used was intense enough to cause the dog to fully flex his leg off the table."

No wonder people are disturbed by the results of these studies!!!!  I'm disturbed by the application of electronic stim to that level, in the name of scientific study. 

Then again, most of the ecollar companies themselves state openly on their pages that aggression should not be treated through ecollar use.

From Dogtra's website (http://www.dogtra.com/) under Product Safety:

Aggressive dogs

Dogtra does not recommend using the e-collar to correct dogs that are aggressive towards other dogs or people. In many such cases the dog will associate the stimulation with the other dog or individual and become even more aggressive. Dog aggression is best treated by a dog training specialist. 

At the risk of incurring some red ink, I'm not going to enter this thread.  Everyone here knows how I feel about devices that cause pain to dogs - unnecessary because there are perfectly humane methods that also work exceedingly well.  

The only comment I have is that placing those warnings on shock collars is like the disclaimer on Cesar Millan's TV show.  While companies certainly aren't responsible for human stupidity, it's really a shame that so many dogs pay for it on a daily basis.  My feeling is that if someone needs a shock collar to train their dog, they either need to stop demanding Nazi-like perfection or develop more skill as a trainer. 

Why does a certain e-collar trainer block positive trainers' comments from his youtube site?  What's he afraid of - the truth??? 

 I'm going to see if my college can get me the Tortora article, since I so clearly need that for my studies . If I can get it, and someone wants to see it and not pay $11 or whatever it is, I might be able to mail them my copy after I read it, if they can get me it. I can't really comment on it though without having read it.

 didn't read the linked study but will say this (and I've said it before)

e-collars can be used in both negative and positive ways -as can many other training methods

I have seen them in my neighborhood on small dogs because some asinine trainer uses them on all dogs for all things - completely insane - she is referred to as the dog natzi.  This person has many credentials next to their name so one would think they were both well skilled and professional. I have spoken to two small dog owners that have used this trainer about how unnecessary the collars on and made some headway.

OTH I 100% believe that an e-collar for hunting or bird work can be an asset and in some cases a must have.  I have just started doing some goose hunting/chasing with Bugsy on a wide open golf course. He is now a mature dog (4.5yrs old) and I honestly think that was a factor in him returning to me post chase.  I will never have 100% confidence in his recall under these circumstances.  I am never going to be more interesting to him than a goose, fact.  He was at several points a long way from me - a LONG way from me.

An e-collar with appropriate training would be ideal for this purpose and no doubt if we continue on this job for any length of time I will invest in a good one. It may be hard for some to imagine but the intensity of his drive for birds is beyond explanation.  Couple this with his strength, power, speed and size and there is no one on earth that will hold a line or attempt to stand on a line in this situation. In this application he needs to work independently and the drive should be as intense as he has in him, the ecollar will allow that while still providing me a way of communicating to him from long distances. He is not handler focused, so he isn't looking for direction from you.

At a younger age I am confident he would not have come back for a long time - been there done that when he has gone after deer and after waterfowl, breaking leather leashes and prong collars to chase them.

Kim_MacMillan

In many such cases the dog will associate the stimulation with the other dog or individual and become even more aggressive

Its weird that the company gives a warning about that, if i'm not mistaken that is exactly the point of using the ecollar for situations like this. Clearly they dont understand well how a dog thinks. If something causes discomfort the dog will avoid the cause of the discomfort, is doggie common sense 101

spiritdogs

they either need to stop demanding Nazi-like perfection or develop more skill as a trainer. 

Why does a certain e-collar trainer block positive trainers' comments from his youtube site?  What's he afraid of - the truth???

I guess those people want to have "nazi-like" perfection when their dog gets closer to a rattle snake while hiking and the human does not know it's there.

I understand that the ecollar trainers block comments, most people who does not understand it will post and why to bother with someone who does not want to understand how a tool works?

Liesje

I don't really think aggression can be "cured", as a dog is either aggressive (as part of it's temperament) or it is fearful and thus acts aggressive (also part of it's temperament).

Just like my signature says: "The worst enemy for a dog's rehabilitation is the human mind"

I agree that i dont know why there are people out there obsessed about how others train their dogs.

How can you ever not know a rattlesnake is there?? They let you know!

I have personally seen a dog that reacted to the application of an aversive whilst being aggressive become more aggressive. It was like an affirmation. She thought it was a dangerous thing and now she's sure of it. She would work herself into a frenzy around that thing every time after that. 

espencer

Its weird that the company gives a warning about that, if i'm not mistaken that is exactly the point of using the ecollar for situations like this. Clearly they dont understand well how a dog thinks. If something causes discomfort the dog will avoid the cause of the discomfort, is doggie common sense 101

Actually, it is precisely because the companies know how dogs think, but not so much how they think, rather how neurotransmitters work in the brain and how electricity affects those brain chemicals! A dog who is already aroused has adrenaline (epinepherine) and dopamine rushing through its brain. It is a stimulating neurotransmitter, the one that causes the "fight/flight" response. The electric stimulation from the ecollar causes more adrenaline to be released into the brain, increases the amount of cortisol as well, and it causes what Brenda Aloff nicely calls an "adrenaline dump". Basically the brain is chock-full of messages and it has to do something. It is no longer thinking, it is reacting. If a dog is going to choose "fight" rather than "flight" as its option (generally what a dog chooses as a first response is genetic in nature, mixed with prior learning), and you choose to use the stim at just a certain moment, you can in effect cause the aggressive outburst to happen in that moment. Basic neurochemistry 101.

What I don't get about these studies and discussions is that they always seem to center around using an e-collar on a dog that has problems or is aggressive.  IMO that's just asking for it.  To me the e-collar is a training tool.  Slapping it on an aggressive dog and dialing up the stim is NOT training, it's just stupid, zapping a dog into submission.  I would never judge the value of a tool based on the most stupid of uses, sort of like I don't rag on the Easy Walk harness b/c I've seen some person jerking their confused dog around with one.

I guess I am lucky I've never seen anyone try to use an e-collar in that way.

Kim_MacMillan

It is no longer thinking, it is reacting. If a dog is going to choose "fight" rather than "flight" as its option (generally what a dog chooses as a first response is genetic in nature, mixed with prior learning), and you choose to use the stim at just a certain moment, you can in effect cause the aggressive outburst to happen in that moment. Basic neurochemistry 101.

I see where the problem is, the name of the game is: timing

Letting a dog-aggresive dog to focus too long on the other dog and then trying to "lower him down" from a "level 10 fight" state of mind with the ecollar could cause the dog to react that way. Now, if you use the ecollar when he is in a "level 1 of  AGGRESSION" it will be easier.

If the dog is in a "level 1" just acknowledging another dog, why would he need to be corrected for that?  How exactly do you use an e-collar in that scenario when the dog is simply seeing/acknowledging another dog (but not fixating or worse)?

corvus

I have personally seen a dog that reacted to the application of an aversive whilst being aggressive become more aggressive.

You don't say ecollar, so I assume it was something else.  Using an ecollar does not always mean an application of an aversive. 

I see ecollars used on highly dog-aggressive dogs, but they are not the reason why the dog's behavior is managed - it's the training.  PERIOD.  In the hands of highly capable professional trainers, the ecollar can be correctly used as a tool within the obedience training of dog-aggressive dogs without escalating aggression.  But as I've personally said in every ecollar discussion, I don't believe people should go out and buy one and apply it to their dog without proper training/instruction from a responsible, effective trainer who can also help the owner understand behavior presented during any training session.