Shaker Cans?

Liesje

  It's not a verbal correct, I just simply say "no" in a totally neutral voice to let the dog know what he did does not earn the reward, try something else.  They don't ever learn what not to do until they learn what *to* do.

I say, "Try again" as the same command. They look for a different position, different toy, different whatever to get what they want. Teaching an NRM works GREAT. 

I also like the NRM because it blocks me from being overly harsh with a verbal correction.  I just remind myself to give the NRM in a neutral voice, allow the dog to re-position or try again and earn the reward/play.

jennie_c_d

Liesje

  It's not a verbal correct, I just simply say "no" in a totally neutral voice to let the dog know what he did does not earn the reward, try something else.  They don't ever learn what not to do until they learn what *to* do.

 

 

I say, "Try again" as the same command. They look for a different position, different toy, different whatever to get what they want. Teaching an NRM works GREAT. 

On some dogs..... On others.... even a NRM is way too aversive!

 That would be a very difficult dog to work with. My naturally soft, quiet, toy sized dogs have both done VERY well with "try again". It's working much better than ignoring, probably because I have a really hard time ignoring anything LOL. They're both too soft for any kind of physical correction, and even rough play overwhelms them, at times (they're not into in your face play, like Emma, the terrier). What would it be like to live with a dog softer than they are?

 Want to borrow Kenya? lol

 I don't think it's just a matter of how soft the dog is.  It's just down to preferneces.  Some dogs find an NRM aversive, but say might play quite roughly, or run through undergrowth with spiny things hanging off their you know whats and not seem to notice.  That's why the shaker can is a risky beeswax.... cos you can't TELL if the dog is going to be utterly terrified of it, until you have tried it.... because it's NOT just about how soft the dog is.

You could have a boxer (that is the person who boxes professionally, not the breed) - they take a lot of hits and you'd imagine them to be quite "hard" - but who is to say they can't be terrified of spiders, or just not take it well if someone criticises their driving?  I don't think I am a "soft" person.  But I'll admit to being downright terrified of wasps.  I imagine everyone has a soft spot.... for some dogs that might be a physical correction or a shake can, for others it might be an NRM.

I think one reason NRMs work so well for so many people, is that they work for the PEOPLE... not the dog.  They help the PERSON train the dog, not **necessarily** help the dog understand what is required.  That's purely theory though.  I don't do well with NRMs.... that's having them used on me (I don't take criticism very well) and also trying to use them with the dogs when training (I find it easier to ignore).  Doesn't mean I am an overly soft person.... it's just about preferences.  Different strokes and all that!

Correct, they are more for me than the dog.  My SchH trainer has me use them (yes the big bad SchH trainer has me using freeshaping with my clicker and NRMs) and they help with my timing.  For example, on Friday Nikon was supposed to be picking up a dowel off some soup cans, but he would grab the end rather than the center and drop it before he got to me.  I was saying "no" as he came to front position minus the dowel, but the trainer corrected my timing so that I said "no" the second he touched the wrong part of the dowel with his mouth.  The NRM helps me with my timing and helps me learn what *exactly* I am looking for  as far as what behavior would have been mark-able (because if he HAD done it correctly, I would have been marking "yes" at the wrong moment too) and keeps me from adding too much pressure with my voice or a verbal correction.  I've trained myself to just say "no" in a calm neutral voice and quickly move on.

 I have trouble understanding why people think a NRM is aversive.  It's just a simple word or two.  If "yes" or "click" can signify "reinforcement coming" then why can't "oops" signify "no reward coming"???  To me, it's usually *how* the NRM is delivered that makes it aversive (No!!!!).  Otherwise, IME, it's just communication...

It is, until you work with a super-sensitive dog that finds "lack of reward" to be the same as a punisher. I don't think an NRM is aversive, but I have had some dogs that think it can be, even when said in a neutral tone. It is communication, but some dogs find "not succeeding" or "being wrong" very punitive. I've seen it in several breeds, through several agility folk training with me, and I have a dog that finds it punitive as well. This is also a dog that finds me talking to another dog in anything but a normal voice punitive, she's not on the "normal" end of average in terms of sensitivity. It's not as bad as it used to be, but even my SO can still startle her when he raises his voice in what most consider a non-threatening manner.

For Kenya and I, the NRM problem is a combination of sensitivity (like what Kim is describing), the dog's drive, and being proactive.  Since Nikon has SO much ball and food drive and is a far more "operant"/pro-active kind of dog than Kenya, he will fluidly work through NRM, correction, release, reward, out, command, etc.  The drive pushes him through, the operant type training we did his entire puppyhood keeps him trying over and over again.  He is sensitive to me but is not a sensitive dog in general so an NRM is not misinterpreted as some kind of verbal correction or scolding.

My Schutzhund trainer has a young dog that works the same way.  He was teaching her a flip finish but she kept doing it very crooked so he'd say "no" and she'd adjust her butt without him having to lure or help reposition her in any way.  It was clear she understood "no" as the NRM and tried again on her own without any physical help or verbal commands until it was correct and she got the mark, release, and reward.

Kenya is far more sensitive and generally works simply for affirmation from the handler (praise, petting, little release games).  She's fairly easy to train and even shape with a clicker but is not even half as pro-active as Nikon, she needs more luring or she starts to shut down because she wants to please but doesn't understand what is being asked and would rather be shown,  The NRM doesn't really work with her.  We have better luck just not saying anything and waiting for something to reward.

I used a shaker can for Lexi's barking as a puppy. When she'd start yapping, I would shake it - it worked pretty well. She no longer barks indoors without good reason, and the shaker can is long retired.

Loopy

I used a shaker can for Lexi's barking as a puppy. When she'd start yapping, I would shake it - it worked pretty well. She no longer barks indoors without good reason, and the shaker can is long retired.

There's no question that noise aversion works for some dogs.  However, for others it has resulted in fear, or even noise phobias.  I'm glad your dog didn't experience that, but just a word to the wise for others who might think to try it - you don't always know which dogs will be affected beforehand. 

 Thanks everyone!

I've come up with some other ways to keep her distracted or out from under the feet in general- play stations, pens.... had to get a new baby gate too :P she hates that darned thing, but oh well(unless she figures out she can just climb over... which was what Sparta did when he was a puppy)  anyway, wont be using the shaker can or noise as a way to distract unless its my voice. DH has also gotten involved in distracting her when she wants to play tug o war with your legs. if he sees her trying to go after the cuffs, or the kid's tshirts or bath towels((she's worse when the kids are excited over anything)) he'll grab her and either make her sit on the sofa with him or find one of her rope toys for a proper game of tug. either way, during the evening when the kids are running around getting ready for bath and bedtime, HE keeps her distracted.

She's a sensitive pup but not noise sensitive. she will look up and pay attention to a loud noise but (like for example when Chuffy mentioned boxers and spiders) she is a tough little thing until she hears another dog bark. so far thats the ONLY thing i have seen that makes her tuck her tail and run for cover. But thats a whole other issue to be dealt with. i can tell she's going to be a dog that will get used to and ignore hand clapping, shaking cans, etc.... in a way i'm glad she's not afraid of loud noises-especially after having a dog that would have anxiety attacks anytime it thundered-

some of this training isnt just for her though. when i put her in her play area she'll automatically whine to get out.. . and the moment she opens her mouth my kids want to open the gate. So its teaching THEM as much as its teaching her lol she's no dummy... it took one time of her howling and them opening the gate for her to figure out the key to that puzzle.... They were much younger when i was doing all of this with Sparta and didnt pay him any attention. my oldest used to just follow my lead, but now that he's four he thinks he knows better than i do and again...that too is subject matter for a different thread.

Anyway wanted to say thanks again! you've all brought up some great points and things i want to learn more about.