Heeling Help with Strauss Please :-(

 Random thought.... have you tried TTouch? It's supposed to  help with the whole balance thing. Personally, I use it on Emma's head and ears, to calm her and connect with her, then do some short tugging right before she goes in. She isn't nearly as drivey as a GSD, so a little "up" helps her.

 No, we've not tried TTouch, but we've done some Jyn Sin Jytsu work (totally spelled that wrong xD).

 If you've been training him conventionally, I'd try clicker training him - the clicker makes it easier to communicate about being quiet.  Teach him to bark on cue, then interrupt and C/T for "quiet".  That way, you can turn the behavior off and on in other circumstances, teach him the cue words, and let him know that he is to be quiet while heeling, gradually lengthening the duration and increasing the distraction level at which he can be quiet.

He is clicker trained.  He also has cues to bark and a "be quiet" command.  Neither works.

Had to do that for agility too, but it only works for so long before he chooses to ignore/gets too riled to comply.

I was almost in tears this weekend during demos because I can't get him to STHU.  The audience thinks it's funny, and it's not...he's cost me a couple hundred in entry fees because I get there and he WON'T show.

I've been working for a couple of MONTHS with saying nothing and ONLY marking and rewarding when he's silent...no improvement.

1-2-3 steps sit *BARK*  1-2-3 steps sit *BARK* 1-2-3 steps sit *BARK* 1-2-3 steps sit *BARK* 1-2-3 steps sit *Silence* Yes! *gives cookie*

I was thinking maybe it was an extinction burst, but I don't think it is :-/

  Has this been a problem since the start of your training? If not, when did it first occur?

IME teaching the dog to bark and be quiet don't seem to have an effect on things like this. I would think that you need to figure out the reason for the barking. My first instinct is this sounds like it could be stress related, although it is hard to say without seeing the video. What a frustrating problem!

Has this been a problem since the start of your training?

If not, when did it first occur?

My first instinct is this sounds like it could be stress related

Xeph

I thought the same, but he maintains attention outside of the ring (at least he used to).  Step in the ring and I'm basically given the finger.  Tried working with a tab....he's not stupid, he knows it's there.  I also have trouble correcting on the retrieves (He likes to bolt and ignore the wait command...it was solid, now it's gone).  I'm left handed....I'm not strong enough to correct with the right hand, but I can't throw the dumbell righthanded either....it either doesn't go over the *$(&@#(*$&# jump or it doesn't go far enough >.<

  This makes me think all the more that it is stress related. IME much of what people think of as the dog is "blowing you off" or "ring wise" is actually stress. Stress in the ring often comes from the dog bing trained differently than it is trialed (a biggie is the handler's cues and/or attitude), handler stress and the dog not being totally solid on knowing the "job" before being taken to trials but obviously can be a lot of things. The fact that if he isn't barking he is excused for being "inattentive" is another indicator that this is most likely stress related. In this case (and in many) the stress would have to do with being in the ring, which is why he acts normal at ringside. Trying to use correction for the problem will only make it worse. Will be interested to see the video when you get it up.

 I can say that I rarely ever correct my current obedience competition dog for the competition exercises and certainly not ones which would require me to be "strong". I want my dog to work with me, not against me and I don't want to turn competition OB into a battle. In the past I used correction or a mix of motivation and correction and never got the performance, especially with heeling that I was looking for. My current dog is the most consistent out of the dogs I have trained and has the best heeling performance. I will use an occasional leash pop if he gets distraction or out of position but for him it is more of a "hey!" than a "you bad dog!" sort of thing (Terri Arnold talks about this in her Steppin' Up to Success Book One). With my past dogs, looking back I can see they became stressed in the ring and that was the source of a lot of the issues I had with them - lagging, inconsistency, not trialing like they performed during practice, lack of focus/attention in the ring. The stress with them stemmed from not being trained like they were trialed, not having a solid foundation (they were trained to heel in group classes even - ugh!) and then correcting them for mistakes/stress that stemmed from not having a solid foundation. I find when the dogs really knows something, there is little need for correction.

 FWIW I have seen stress in dogs trained with "all motivational" methods in the ring too. IME this also usually stems from the dog not having a solid foundation and not being trained like they will be trialed. 

Xeph

Step in the ring and I'm basically given the finger.

With horses we call it ringsour.Usually the best course of action is take some time off and do something completely different for awhile.I saw you at the Petexpo last weekend.The crowd on Saturday was pretty thick,would cause all but the most thickskined dogs to be a little on edge.

Tena

Xeph

He is clicker trained.  He also has cues to bark and a "be quiet" command.  Neither works.

Had to do that for agility too, but it only works for so long before he chooses to ignore/gets too riled to comply.

I was almost in tears this weekend during demos because I can't get him to STHU.  The audience thinks it's funny, and it's not...he's cost me a couple hundred in entry fees because I get there and he WON'T show.

I've been working for a couple of MONTHS with saying nothing and ONLY marking and rewarding when he's silent...no improvement.

1-2-3 steps sit *BARK*  1-2-3 steps sit *BARK* 1-2-3 steps sit *BARK* 1-2-3 steps sit *BARK* 1-2-3 steps sit *Silence* Yes! *gives cookie*

I was thinking maybe it was an extinction burst, but I don't think it is :-/

Shepherds are good at learning behavior chains, so maybe it's just that somewhere along the way, he learned that this sequence of behavior earns him that cookie after a second or two of silence (usually, we would accept that second or two, but I believe that, with many dogs, you need to stretch it out further - five seconds or more).  I think you may have to resign yourself to going back to the beginning with this dog, and NOT showing for a while (what you allow, or cannot stop, you teach - thus, every time he does this he is learning that it's ok to do it - frustrating, I know).  And, your anxiety over the whole thing, or even the audience reaction, could be contributing to the behavior.  If you are marking and rewarding silence TOO SOON, you may accidentally have reinforced the behavior chain that you didn't want, and it may take some time to unravel that.  

By the way, if he is a clicker trained dog, why are you correcting at all?  There's a big difference between "clicker training" and just "training with a clicker"!  This makes me think there' s something to AgileGSD's theory of the dog not understanding what is expected - training is different in different places.  Anxiety does cause barking, and other undesireable behaviors, as we know.  Just something to consider.

Jackie, are you stressed?  Is he feeding off you?  I know I get really nervous before I go in the ring, even for something rather simple, and at those times I see the "wow, she's never done THAT before!" behaviors.

 Don't have time to answer everything now...I clicker train for new behaviors.  I'll never be a
"purely positive" trainer.  Doesn't fit my style or temperament.  If my dog KNOWS the exercise and he's out of position, he's going to be corrected for it.

Xeph

 Don't have time to answer everything now...I clicker train for new behaviors.  I'll never be a
"purely positive" trainer.  Doesn't fit my style or temperament.  If my dog KNOWS the exercise and he's out of position, he's going to be corrected for it.

 And if the problem is due to stress, it will continue to get worse with corrections. If your dog knows the exercises, has a solid foundation in the exercises and enjoys working in obedience you should ask yourself why his performance has fallen apart. Saying he is "blowing you off" or "giving you the finger" is a rather emotional take on the situation that doesn't really have much to do with dog behavior or the facts about the situation and will not help you find a solution. I'm not suggesting that you should be "purely positive" but as I said, dogs with a solid foundation should not need much "correction" for the basics.

 The person who mentioned horses being ring sour made a good point too about not trialing/training for awhile. If you are continuing to set him up for situations which cause this behavior, you are allowing him to practice this undesirable behavior over and over and over again.

I saw you at the Petexpo last weekend.

IME this also usually stems from the dog not having a solid foundation and not being trained like they will be trialed.

If I trained like I was supposed to trial my dog would never be given a correction ever, nor would he ever be rewarded (I'm not trying to be smart....I truly don't understand).

This is like when people tell me "Practice piano like you perform."  Well...I can't.  I don't do them the same way :-/  And if I don't train, how do I solve the issue?  It's still there when I come back later because nothing has been done about it.

Strauss had over a year of "doing nothing" before he started doing this because I thought he was burned out, and I'm still having issues.

I just don't understand why his CD was bang bang bang and now he'll train without issue (well, not even that now >.<;) but won't show.

Xeph

If I trained like I was supposed to trial my dog would never be given a correction ever, nor would he ever be rewarded (I'm not trying to be smart....I truly don't understand).

  What I mean is that many, many people when they train faill into depending on extra cues, talking to their dog during heeling, moving more naturally and such things which are not part of the picture when the dog is doing the exercise at a trial. The dog does good during training but falls apart at a trial when the handler suddenly starts acting "weird" (in the dog's eyes) by not saying anything, moving differently, not giving encouragement, not using the leash to guide/correct and the such. This can be very stressful to some dogs and causes them to leave the ring, lag or other things which are seen as "ring wise".

Xeph

Strauss had over a year of "doing nothing" before he started doing this because I thought he was burned out, and I'm still having issues.

I just don't understand why his CD was bang bang bang and now he'll train without issue (well, not even that now >.<;) but won't show.

  What sort of foundation work did you do with him? How was heel trained?