Heeling Help with Strauss Please :-(

What I mean is that many, many people when they train faill into depending on extra cues, talking to their dog during heeling, moving more naturally and such things which are not part of the picture when the dog is doing the exercise at a trial.

My video is uploading right now (one of two), so you can see what I'm doing.  I've no doubt I'm using some extra cues...but I don't know what they are because they aren't concious.  My talking to him is minimal...they want to encourage talking during training, but I've stopped because I can't do it in a trial.  "Why don't you talk to him?"  ...Because I can't in a trial

What sort of foundation work did you do with him? How was heel trained

I keep trying to figure out what is changing about ME in the ring, because I don't feel nervous, but within the first three steps my dog is either off in lala land or barking.  He's been at ONE match this year (February) and did the Sat/Sun demos at the expo, and is entered in nothing else currently.  There will be some agility trials, but that's it for the whole year.

Without even seeing the video yet, I can say that I've seen dogs who do this when they're doing both Obed and Agility.  It's like they're trying to change the subject and tell you "HELLO!  MOM!  Time for the racing around FUN part!!!  HELLO!  Are you listening!?  Let me go run to the stations and do my thing!!!  Where's the FUN?!"

So, I wonder, are you currently training in Agility at the same time as Obed? I've def seen dogs get to the ring and think "YAHOO, it's Agility time!" and start barking.  Perhaps you can do some Obed training within rings that are set up for a few weeks and see if that changes his expectation that the ring gates mean Agility.

Xeph

http://rapidshare.com/files/216014712/StraussHeeling.wmv

Is this you in training, or at a match/trial?  I presume training.  Do you always train as a full pattern where you're throwing commands while heeling?  Or do you break down the sections and work on, say, just platz on recall without any heeling?  You look like you're trying to keep up your speed to keep him moving briskly, but you lose some clarity in your hand signals and body language.  It just looks like you're amped up- and, shoot, even that OTHER dog wanted to join in the excitement.  (Nice work grabbing the other dog, btw!  Good Platz, Strauss!)

Having seen that video, it looks like you're carrying extra energy that maybe Strauss associates with Agility, and not Obed.  As if he thinks, as I mentioned earlier, that this must be time for the FUN Agility stuff.  It's like the growls/"buffs" are excitement/self-rewarding.

This is just training...right after conformation class.  I do not always train full pattern, no.

And it's not so much that I'm keeping my speed up to keep HIM moving...if I don't move that quickly, he forges, and nothing I've tried fixes it.  I also get a mixed bag about that "He should adjust to you!" other people tell me I need to adjust to him...

And I lose clarity in my hand signals because I'm a scatter brain  Hand straight up in the air is actually a sit for him, as oppose to palm up, which I did a couple of times (Others in club use the palm up to signal the sit so that's what I use when I "talk" to their dogs).

That other dog, BTW (as I'm sure you're aware) had nasty intentions for my dog....if it had continued, the other dog would have LOST (he's just a puppy too...).  I'm thankful that he didn't come head on at Strauss and that I saw him out of the corner of my eye.  I'm amazed at how quickly I just grabbed and held.

The puppy didn't fight once I'd scruffed him, just kinda let me hold him, but that really could have been awful.  I didn't even know Erin had gotten it on tape.

Having seen that video, it looks like you're carrying extra energy that maybe Strauss associates with Agility, and not Obed.

So, I wonder, are you currently training in Agility at the same time as Obed?

Perhaps you can do some Obed training within rings that are set up for a few weeks and see if that changes his expectation that the ring gates mean Agility.

How about I just send him to you? K thx ^_^

You have a REALLY intense vibe being thrown off in that video.  Really. Intense.  Strauss seems to be enjoying himself and having fun (which is good), but I think it would be beneficial to bring the intensity way down for a while.  Work at a much slower pace, drop your shoulders and relax.  If you relax, your dog will read off your signals and relax, too.  He is totally feeding off you, whether it be nervous energy, excitement or maybe that's just your normal intensity level.

Some of the barking is due to timing or missed signals, as well -- I know that's when Luke barks at me in the agility ring.  The error may be incredibly minor, but the dog is our best teacher.

What happens if you work off some of his excess energy before training?  Does that help at all?

What happens if you work off some of his excess energy before training?  Does that help at all?

I try bringing down the intensity, and the moment I do he lags and becomes uninterested.  Things aren't fun if they're slow, even if I try to make them fun.

For example, I get a LOT more barking on a standard agility course than I do on a jumpers or tunnelers course.  He doesn't want to stop on contacts, so he "Yells" more.  Jumpers and tunnelers are continuous movement, so there is less protesting as it were.

By the way, if you were wondering why I wasn't rewarding with food/toy it's because I was trying to moderately simulate a TRIAL situation, where I can't reward with treats or a toy.  He was being verbally praised, but I do it quietly to train and maintain some control.

There was cheese in my pocket which he most definitely got after the Wirehair tried to eat him!

I'm going to try and get some more video of us using the suggestions here (One step, two step, heeling backwards, etc).

I couldn't get the videos to download - too bad!

 Based on the other info here though, my suggesion would be to just retrain the heeling. It sounds like there have always been some issue or another with the heeling (inattentive, forging, frustration barking) so your best bet would be to start over and make sure your new heeling foundation is strong. Change the word you use and change the way it has been taught. Without retraining it, you're going to fall back on the weak foundation - heeling tht you have never been totally happy with for one reason or another. I would highly suggest getting Terri Arnold's Stepping Up to Success book 1, which is all about competition obedience foundation work and I think a lot of the exercises will help your. I really like Choose to Heel for teaching heel too.

  I also suggest that you do impulse control work with Strauss - it sounds like frustration barking (which GSD can be prone to) and I think if he had work in impulse control, that would improve as well. I would work a lot with him on "Doggy Zen" type stuff:

http://www.dragonflyllama.com/%20DOGS/Levels/LevelBehaviours/TL26Zen.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipT5k1gaXhc

 Control Unleashed may be another good book to look into because it is pretty all about impulse control.

  I disagree that this is a problem associated with doing agility and obedience - all of my dogs have done both and it shouldn't cause confusion or problems in obedience.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEBke0I1w-w

Got one on youtube

Thanks - the video helps!

  Strauss is showing signs of stress in this video other than the frustration barking - he licks his lips a lot and I saw a couple yawns too. Both are sure signs of stress and are also both used as "calming signals". His heeling overall is better than I expecrted actually - nice head up attention for much of it.

 A couple other thoughts (and none of this is meant to pick on you,so please take it as it is meant - to help you with your dog's problem). Your handling is kind of "frantic" and I do think that is adding to some of the issues. I see this a lot with people who have high drive, intense, easily frustrated dogs in agility - they seem to counter it with intense, frantic handling but what such dogs really need is calm, smooth handling. You move your arms a lot and you do a lot of sudden stops and turns. Practice smooth footwork, cues and handling without your dog. Your arms can swing naturally at your side or your left hand can be held at your waist. I may suggest holding your's at your waist because it will present a more consistent picture for your dog and less movement will probably be better for him.The most important thing is to be consistent with your cues - that is part of the "train like you trial". The piture should look the same to the dog during practice or competition.

 Your halts do not have to be sudden stops - I always think of it as "HALT...one...two...three" because you are permitted to take a few steps after the judge calls halt to stop. You can use this to your advantage by having consistant footwork for all of your halts that involves you taking three smaller steps to slow into the halt. This allows you to tell your dog that the halt is coming up. You can see on this video the handler does the same thing at every halt and is very smooth and consistent http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pM2pD9Kwv4c&feature=related

  For your about turn when you are turning super quick and sharp, it is very hard for your dog to know what is coming. There is certain footwork that more obedience people suggest for about turns and it really does help. This site describes it and gives other ideas for fixing heeling issues: http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~may/quick.html The Terri Arnold book I suggested has a ton of information on footwork for all heeling exercises.

 I have watched some of your other videos and your handling is better in some of them and much smoother in the video of him in open at the show. This part of what is meant by practice like you trial - use the same cues and movement as you would for a trial when you train. In your most recent training video you will notice a lot of where you loose him and he starts showing signs of stress is on the turns and halts. I suspect your forging issue may also improve with more consistent cues/movement.

 He is a nice boy and I agree that he has a lot of potential! He seems to have good drive, attitude and is really trying to do what you want him to do. I think you will be able to work through these issues and have a really nice working dog. I wouldn't drill him on the heeling to try to fix the problem but instead break it into small parts and reward him often when he is right. Work on just one thing at a time instead of trying to correct his heeling issues all as one big problem. So pick on thing you want to work on and don't worry about the other problems until that is finished. I still suggest the books I mentioned above, as I think they will help you solve some of your problems although I no longer think you'll need to retrain the whole thing from scratch.

 That is all I can think of right now - it's getting late!

Your handling is kind of "frantic" and I do think that is adding to some of the issues.

You move your arms a lot and you do a lot of sudden stops and turns.

You and Tooney (on another board) said the same thing...pick itty things to work on.  I'll try to do that...it's hard for me.  We'll work on one exercise, but I see so many things WRONG with it that I can't focus on just that "one" thing because they're "equally bothersome".

Poor dog ended up with the wrong handler...others could make him look better

Xeph

|i know :-(  I feel that obedience is very rigid and unforgiving, so my body posture becomes the same.  I don't really see anybody inside the ring smile ever, so I don't either.

  I actually will smile at my dog to let him know he is doing good in the ring - another signal that you won't be docked for.

Xeph

I was told to that to keep him focused so he pays better attention to where I'm going, instead of lagging behind on the abouts.  The same thing goes for the sits...several people suggested sudden halts to get his butt down faster...I get inconsistent speed on the sits.  They're lightning fast sometimes, and other times he takes a lot of time to "gather" and sit (as seen in the Oshkosh video and some of what was posted).  In trial they are much smoother (I swear).  Still moderately rough I wager, but better than what was shown here.

 I can understand where someone may think that would help but I think it is stressing him out. I would work on the halts separately and the about turns separately as well. When you trained heeling did you train it as one behavior? By that I mean you worked all at the same time on position, halts, speed, turns and the such? If so, that is probably what your issue is and the mistake a lot of people make with heeling. Heeling is actually a series of behaviors that should all be taught separately before being put together. If you teach them all together, you tend not to be able to reward every part that you should be rewarding which creates a weakness in performance for some areas.

 There are a few reasons I can think of that your halts may be inconsistent. First is that you didn't focus on working on halts in the training phase, so the dog feels that either is acceptable. Second would be stress, which can cause a slowness to respond. Third would be a possibility that there is a structural issue which is sometimes making him find it awkward to sit, although I suspect it is most likely on of the first two.

Xeph

You and Tooney (on another board) said the same thing...pick itty things to work on.  I'll try to do that...it's hard for me.  We'll work on one exercise, but I see so many things WRONG with it that I can't focus on just that "one" thing because they're "equally bothersome".

 Maybe it would be better for you to start over from scratch on training the heel? It certainly won't hurt Strauss and it may help you break the behavior into small steps. Instead of thinking of heel as one big behavior think of it broken down like this:

Part One Sitting In Heel Position:

1. Dog is comfortable at your left side
2. Dog sits at your left side
3. Dog sits straight at your left side
4. Dog sits close to you at your left side
5. Dog sits and maintains focus/eye contact
6. Dog does above with increasing distractions

Part Two Moving from Sit
1. Dog starts moving with you from the left side sit
2. Dog does above with increasing distractions

Part Three Motion

1. Dog walks at your left side
2. Dog walks at your left side, close to you
3. Dog walks closely at your left side at your pace
4. Dog walks close to your left side, at your pace changing direction with you
5. Dog does above with increasing distractions

Part Four Halting
1. Be sure your dog understands Part One
2. Dog sits when you stop
4. Dog sits close when you stop
5. Dog sits straight when you stop
5. Dog learns foot cues to predict the halt
6. Dog offers sit automatically when you stop

Part Five - Heeling
1. Put parts One through Four together, once all are mastered individually.
2. Dog Heels with increasing distractions

Xeph

Poor dog ended up with the wrong handler...others could make him look better

 Don't feel that way! He obviously ended up with a good handler - you're asking how to improve his performance and are willing to try different things to help him suceed :)

I just watched the YouTube one (albeit I don't have sound on this computer) and it was better than I expected!  Again I don't have sound, but I did see him yawn and so some avoidance type behaviors a few times.

 He's working SO HARD, and you're working harder! I don't have a super high drive, big dog, and I *do* move (which is a little hard for me, honestly, I *had* to pick a toy for conformation because I can't physically gait a big dog), but I don't work *nearly* that hard in a heel. You moving that fast, I think, is making  you move more, and might be winding him up more? I am definitely not an expert, but the smoother I move, the better my dogs heel. When I go shoe shopping, I move at different speeds, up and down the aisles, in front of a mirror, until I feel completely stupid, and buy the shoes I move smoothest in. I don't move so fast I start to "flail", but *juuuust* before that.

Emma would definitely be harder to keep in a decent heel, if I moved that fast. A run is no problem, it's the irregularity of my movement.

Just a thought. 

Also, you are like lightening, grabbing that Pointer! WOW!

 I've only seen one of the videos, but it does sound like a bit of stress, and I do have to agree with Agile that what I would do is back off and break it down - I think a lot comes from your handling skills and I know how it feels to handle a fast, drivey, up in your face dog - but the key to that is control, and the more frantic and hectic you become, the worse he will get - no matter how crazy he gets - the more forgey he is, the answer is to maintain your control, not try to heel faster than he is - stand up straighter, push him back with your body and eyes, raise your toes and if you need to, do a series of left turns to back him up into place. Racing just encourages the forging, believe me. Smooth halts, smooth turns, walking in straight lines, and minimizing how much your arms and upper body will move will help clarify things. Sometimes you stare him down, sometimes you look straight ahead. I think much of the barking is because he's frustrated with inconsistent handling and doesn't know what to give you.

I'd really pick one thing to focus on except in run throughs - if its turns you want, then work turns - if its halts you want, then work halts - but trying to beat him to a halt not only makes him confused, but you're also accepting crookedness, out of position, etc. Halts are my biggest weakness, because for 2 years I just stopped however I could and it showed in the ring - no sits, VERY crooked sits, you name it. I took private after private and we worked NOTHING but halts for months, I'm serious!

Getting the "right dog" in the ring is a separate issue and potentially some of this may come from stress as well - he's not sure what is expected of him, so he doesn't know what to give you.  But something to remember is you can't carry this performance through.

 Something else to consider is that your sit and down signals are very similar and given with the same hand (with signals) - try making them much different looking and with different arms - even watching this, sometimes I couldnt tell which you were asking for and Strauss gave you the wrong one. 

-kim and the doberduo