why not homecook?

calliecritturs

I think the fact that it is processed until it is a brown liquid that is then passed thru a machine and DRIED into uniform chunks and it is a consistency that allows that -- and THEN it's stored for months and even years in some storehouse?  That just doesn't even make sense to me anymore. 

Me neither.  And just supplementing with a bit of fresh food as a topping doesn't make kibble into something it's not.

mudpuppy

And of course you have to add calcium if you're not feeding bone.

And that's not difficult. Since we're on the subject of general balance, since exact balance may be inachievable, even with kibbles, because they do over-supplement to put up with fines and storage, Green Market in Sherman, Texas sells bone meal. You could probably also find that at Whole Foods Market and other stores that specialize in organic and whole foods. I would imagine, since I only asked a clerk, that a jar of bone meal should have some measurement of the amount of calcium. And it could probably be general for most breeds. Great Danes, however do suffer from a messed up parathyroid if given a calcium overdose.

mudpuppy

actually, my biggest concern with kibble, or the NRC numbers, is that they presume we know all. There are many studies in people that indicate consuming lots of fruits and vegetables confers a strong boost to health. When they try to replicate this effect using artifical cocktails of supplements they can't and often they see a detrimental effect on health. Kibble is the ultimate in artificial cocktails of supplements. I strongly suspect that there are many micronutrients in foods we haven't discovered yet. I strongly suspect that many micronutrients are not very stable and are destroyed during the extensive processing that occurs as kibble is created and stored. The only consistent theme that comes up in nutrition studies is that species-appropriate diets that are fresh and contain a wide variety of ingredients seem to be the healthiest. A bag of corn with some chicken by-products and some artificial supplements that is far from being fresh is kind of the exact opposite diet one would choose for a dog following these guidelines.

Absolutely agree with this !!!  which is why I feed the raw pulverzied veggies and fresh meat every day.    There's just too much we don't know.  But there is also alot we DO know.    Most / many of us know dogs that have lived long healthy lives on kibble alone (even Alpo !!!) so there must be something we know - either that, or dogs can be alot more resilient then we think.    The fresh vegs and fresh meat supplement of 1/3rd her total calories is so easy for me.     I cut a hunk off of whatever meat we're (the humans) are having for dinner and boil it separately for Prancer (the only reason I boil is because she's "pre-pancreatatic" according to our x-vet and I don't want to take chances so I remove a bit of the excess fat by boiling).   The veggies are a bit of a pain but I grind enough to last a month at a time in about an hour and my kitchen actually manages to stay clean through the process !

Kibble as treats makes more sense to me then your typical dog treat - at least it has some level of nutrients LOL.   And I've always felt that canned is closer to "natural" then kibble, so its always been in the diet.

mudpuppy

if you read Segal's works you find that the most common problem with random home-made diets seem to be imbalances in minerals, and after reading her books you can pretty easily avoid these problems yourself without doing tons of math or measuring every microgram of nutrients you put in. Zinc, copper, and potassium are usually deficient; if a lot of beef is fed iron may be in excess. And of course you have to add calcium if you're not feeding bone.

 thats a KEY point.  You have to have some basic knowledge of what foods contain what nutrients.   Going through the "microgram" balancing process really does an excellent job of teaching these things.   Without this underlying knowledge there can be some major issues - ie:  beef is rich in nutrients, heart is muscle meat, I'll feed beef heart every day = bad move !  too much iron.  but you only know that if you know the nutrient content of beef heart and I'd bet that most people don't ... until they become nutso crazy like us and try to homecook for their dogs !

JoAnnDe

I cut a hunk off of whatever meat we're (the humans) are having for dinner and boil it separately

Yikes!   I have a great dane...he eats more meat than I do a day..

With the large breeds...its so much more planning and time spent.  I spent many hours in the kitchen on a Sunday a few months back..with tons of meat and veggies.......and in the end when I separated it all into servings..I ended up with 2 1/2 days worth of food. 

Becca ( for one ) is amazing to me. She prepares home cooking for a ton of dogs everyweek, AND has it down to a science.  She also is balancing every nutriet AND ( something very important to me ) feeding different food rather than the same thing day after day.  I find this amazing...and it almost scares me because I don't know that I ever will be able to do what she does even just for one dog. 

There is one person on my GD forum that does this for several Danes also. She is not as concerned about the 100% balance of each meal though...she feels by the end of the week her dogs have everything they need and are very healthy.   

I lack that confidence!

 With Jack I don't home cook because he has special needs.  With his elbow dysplasia I feed him a joint support food and I'm just not sure how his elbow would do with a home cooked diet.  He has been on premade raw (2 different brands) and I was not impressed with the results. 

 I am very intimidated by home cooking for him--I don't want to do further damage by not balancing something properly.

The other reasons are time, and honestly, money.  Fresh veggies and meats are expensive, and I don't know that that manoey can't be better spent on saving up for treatments, acupuncture, etc.

sillysally

The other reasons are time, and honestly, money.  Fresh veggies and meats are expensive, and I don't know that that manoey can't be better spent on saving up for treatments, acupuncture, etc.

 

This is so true.  Trying to save a few bucks for any health care we could need down the road....purchasing new toys, collars and food for a growing dog....  I always say, I swear they think people with Great Danes are rich!   It costs a lot of money to care for any dog...much less several or giant breeds. It amazes me!   So we all must do the best we can with what we got.    For instance I find a lot of people that feed raw live in an area where they have access to meat, and can pick up huge amounts for a good price....or even veggies.   When you live in a suburban area and you have grocery stores to rely on, its not easy to get good deals.    I go to Aldis to pick up chicken leg quarters for 3.99 for 5#, but I dont' want to just feed him only chicken.   People talk about buffalo meat ect...huh?   Where do you get that from?   

Bubblegum was a healthy lively girl and all of a sudden she was sick....inside of a couple of weeks we spent over $3000 and she was gone anyway. We now realize how important it is to save money for problems like this that come up.

mudpuppy

Here's how I feed myself: eat lots of vegetables. eat some lean meat. Limited amounts of carbohydrates and fat. Take a few supplements I don't think the diet supplies in sufficient quantity, such as omega-3 fatty acids and calcium.

Here's how I feed the dogs: lots of meat and fish. Some bone. Limited amounts of carbohydrates and vegetables. Add a few supplements I don't think the diet supplies in sufficient quantity, such as omega-3 fatty acids and a multimineral.

I'm sure it's not perfect but I just can't believe either dogs or people are so fragile that they need exactly this much zinc or this much whatever every day or they'll drop dead.

I totally agree with this statement.  I don't home cook and probably never will - just don't have the time, energy or desire to cook for the dogs and the family.  I often have to muster up the energy just to cook a balanced nutritional meal for the family. 

HOWEVER, there is no doubt that done properly it is best for the dogs.  

JoAnnDe

Most / many of us know dogs that have lived long healthy lives on kibble alone (even Alpo !!!)

 Not to nitpick, but Alpo is canned food, not kibble. Canned food is much less processed than kibble.  My Aunt's standard poodle lived until 18 on Alpo.

And there are many dogs that do live long lives on kibble. But almost every dog I know that has lived a long life on kibble also was given LOTS of human food (like at least half), and the dog was often overweight.  So I think the dogs live longer in spite of how they were fed.  Basically I think the kibble wasn't exactly doing the dog any favors, while fresh food nourishes the body in ways we probably don't even know about like Mudpuppy said.

jenns

JoAnnDe

Most / many of us know dogs that have lived long healthy lives on kibble alone (even Alpo !!!)

 Not to nitpick, but Alpo is canned food, not kibble. Canned food is much less processed than kibble.  My Aunt's standard poodle lived until 18 on Alpo.

And there are many dogs that do live long lives on kibble. But almost every dog I know that has lived a long life on kibble also was given LOTS of human food, and the dog was often overweight.  So I think the dogs live longer in spite of how they were fed.  Basically I think the kibble wasn't exactly doing the dog any favors, while fresh food nourishes the body in ways we probably don't even know about like Mudpuppy said.

Yeah, but I guess to me saying a dog will live longer on home cooked as opposed to kibble is a whole lot of conjecture unless there is actually science to back it up. 

Also, I think with special needs dogs it comes down to quality of life vs quantity of life.  If a dog that has health issues is doing very well on a particular kibble and the owner wants to switch to homecooked because they've been told it's better for the dog, then the fact that the dog's condition could actually worsen must be factored in. 

sillysally

a dog will live longer on home cooked as opposed to kibble is a whole lot of conjecture unless there is actually science to back it up. 

Also, I think with special needs dogs it comes down to quality of life vs quantity of life.  If a dog that has health issues is doing very well on a particular kibble and the owner wants to switch to homecooked because they've been told it's better for the dog, then the fact that the dog's condition could actually worsen must be factored in. 

Oh yeah, certainly a special needs dog needs careful consideration regarding diet.  It's just like  people who have certain ilnesses need a modified diet.  Of course there is a fresh diet that would suit the special needs dog, but unfortunately the knowledge of *what* it would be might not be there, because there is no money to be made to research it - hence the lack of science to back it up.  Although one can say there is science to back it up when one examines the nutritional research on humans.  The research is there showing that fresh foods are healther than a diet of almost exclusively process foods.  I don't understand why people think dogs are different in this respect. It's almost like we've become so hardwired to believe that a dog's nutritional needs must all come in the form of a bag of dried nuggets.

jenns

Oh yeah, certainly a special needs dog needs careful consideration regarding diet.  It's just like  people who have certain ilnesses need a modified diet.  Of course there is a fresh diet that would suit the special needs dog, but unfortunately the knowledge of *what* it would be might not be there, because there is no money to be made to research it - hence the lack of science to back it up. 

  Monica has examples of diets for dogs with various health conditions in "Optimal Nutrition" including kidney, liver, pancreas (pancreatitis), and heart disease, and also urinary tract stones. She has many clients with special needs dogs that are doing very well. Petdiets.com will also formulate diets for special needs dogs.

jenns

It's almost like we've become so hardwired to believe that a dog's nutritional needs must all come in the form of a bag of dried nuggets.

 That is so true; even though I knew Jessie's cooked diet was balanced, I was worried about feeding it to her at first. I had relied on kibble for years to provide what she needed and I was leaving that security blanket behind. We've been feeding kibble for so many decades that it seems natural; it's what dogs eat.

Willow gets all canned with toppers, she's got a lot of special issues.

But,  if I had another dog or any dog I have in the future I just don't see the point in cooking.  There are excellent quality canned foods out there now with lots of variety.  Why play around with balance if it's not necessary.   I don't think I'll ever put another dog on kibble again unless I have no other choice.

willowchow

Willow gets all canned with toppers, she's got a lot of special issues.

But,  if I had another dog or any dog I have in the future I just don't see the point in cooking.  There are excellent quality canned foods out there now with lots of variety.  Why play around with balance if it's not necessary.   I don't think I'll ever put another dog on kibble again unless I have no other choice.

 

 

Shew.....Lori...... my can of Eagle Pack that I have in the cupboard says to feed 3/4 to 1 1/2 can per 15 lbs.      Last I weighed Gibby he was about 85....but his Dad is 180.        Lets say Gibby stops at 150,,,,,,,,,,,,,at about $2.00 a can.   Per Day!  Who can afford that?   I dont' think I eat that much money per day. Gotta be a lot less expensive to home cook.

dyan

my can of Eagle Pack that I have in the cupboard says to feed 3/4 to 1 1/2 can per 15 lbs. 

Willow is 53 lbs or so and maybe eats 1 1/2 cans per day.  But, aside from that, you've still got to buy whatever supplements you need separately.  And, then for me to spend all that time and effort and still walk around worried that she's not getting what she needs. . .it's just not worth whatever I would save (if anything).  For me, but everyone has to do what they feel is best for them and their dog.