why not homecook?

calliecritturs

But people are a bit afraid they won't balance the diet (yet we all manage to feed ourselves, you know?)

Brookcove .....ok, now you're scarying the heck out of me!

You say every meal needs to be balanced, are the nutrients *that* critical that a dog can't thrive on one or two unbalanced meals in a week..in the longterm, not short-term.

No, I actually didn't say every meal needs to be balanced.  My point is that I prefer a plan that ensures balance over time, rather than "hoping" it might be there, through some magical process of including enough different ingredients.  My diets are balanced over a week.  I've seen diets that are balanced over two or three weeks.  Possibly if I only had one or two tiny dogs I'd do that but with as many as I have here I find just a week convenient and easy to remember.

My dogs eat different things on different days of the week.  And they get a little variety every week outside the diet plan, too.  The difference is that the balance is planned, rather than depending on chance. 

This evening I was at the Food Lion.  They had just marked down turkey necks.  Lu, Maggie, Zhi, and Lynn all get turkey necks in their diets - Lynn gets about a pound and a half, Lu gets half a pound, Maggie gets a pound, and Zhi gets about 1/3 pound (all my recipes are in grams, hence the "about";).  So I knew I needed three pounds and a smidge for a week's worth, so I threw enough in the cart at that great price, for a month.  Awesome!

I don't have to worry that if I feed turkey necks for a month, and take a pass on the more expensive ox tails they had there, that they are missing out on some important minerals (since turkey is excessively low in copper, iron, and zinc for instance).  They will be fine because I figure out what's missing (or have it done) and supplement. 

Brookcove....sorry, didn't mean to literally imply that you said every meal...just figure of speech on my part....my bad.

So...does anyone think that the HK premix preference is an excellent base of good balance?

dyan

jennie, so do you follow a certain recipe, making positive that each nutrient is in place...or do you just feed everything that you know is good for them?

I just feed them what I know is good for them. I do have a good idea of where things fall short, though, and feed accordingly. I'm probably messing up, somewhere. My dogs *are* thriving. They look incredible. Beautiful skin, coat, muscle tone, good bloodwork. I plan on doing a consult in the very near future. I'm relying heavily on Bravo ground mixes for the bulk of their diet, and something has changed. The ingredients are the same, but the dogs are having stool issues and don't look quite as nice as they did.  I also feel that with her issues, Emma would benefit from having a specially designed diet (that the puppy could also eat).

Here's how I feed myself: eat lots of vegetables. eat some lean meat. Limited amounts of carbohydrates and fat. Take a few supplements I don't think the diet supplies in sufficient quantity, such as omega-3 fatty acids and calcium.

Here's how I feed the dogs: lots of meat and fish. Some bone. Limited amounts of carbohydrates and vegetables. Add a few supplements I don't think the diet supplies in sufficient quantity, such as omega-3 fatty acids and a multimineral.

I'm sure it's not perfect but I just can't believe either dogs or people are so fragile that they need exactly this much zinc or this much whatever every day or they'll drop dead.

actually, my biggest concern with kibble, or the NRC numbers, is that they presume we know all. There are many studies in people that indicate consuming lots of fruits and vegetables confers a strong boost to health. When they try to replicate this effect using artifical cocktails of supplements they can't and often they see a detrimental effect on health. Kibble is the ultimate in artificial cocktails of supplements. I strongly suspect that there are many micronutrients in foods we haven't discovered yet. I strongly suspect that many micronutrients are not very stable and are destroyed during the extensive processing that occurs as kibble is created and stored. The only consistent theme that comes up in nutrition studies is that species-appropriate diets that are fresh and contain a wide variety of ingredients seem to be the healthiest. A bag of corn with some chicken by-products and some artificial supplements that is far from being fresh is kind of the exact opposite diet one would choose for a dog following these guidelines.

stanton

So...does anyone think that the HK premix preference is an excellent base of good balance?

   This was discussed on Our Dogs Online ( Mordanna's forum). I wanted to link it but there doesn't seem to be a search function for ODO and I couldn't find the thread; it was several months ago. Basically, Mordanna said Preference was balanced as it was, but when meat was added, it wasn't a balanced formula anymore.  Different meats have varying amounts of minerals and phosphorus. When a kibble is formulated, for example, the nutrients in the type of meat meal used are taken into consideration in balancing the food. I don't know how much you need to worry about this though; perhaps you could ask HK?

mudpuppy

I'm sure it's not perfect but I just can't believe either dogs or people are so fragile that they need exactly this much zinc or this much whatever every day or they'll drop dead.

  I think you're right, as long as the vitamins and minerals don't fall too short of what's needed or are too excessive. According to Monica Segal, for example, most home cooked diets don't have enough potassium. Over time that can result in lack of muscle tone and weakness. Could be something you'd attribute to old age when it was actually preventable. I think that feeding Jessie a diet that mets her needs according to the 2006 NRC guidelines is the best of both worlds; she's getting her nutrition from fresh foods and based on the most up to date research.

Perhaps I'm reckless with feeding, but I've stopped measuring everything. I get pet meat in 1kg rolls, cook and mash up a bunch of frozen vegies and every week I pull out a roll of meat and a container of vegies and make up meals in the bowls as I go. I guess. My partner does it half the time and he guesses. We toss in some dairy. We guess how much. When I think of it I give them some kelp powder and brewers yeast. I guess how much. They get fish oil daily because Penny has bad arthritis. Penny also gets glucosamine. I give them bones in the evening. Chicken or lamb or kangaroo, usually. They have an organ meal once a week. Sometimes they get fish. When they get tired of something they stop eating it and we change to something else.

The dogs are doing fine. Kivi just had his bloods done at the vets thanks to him finding a box of ibuprofen pills and eating some. The vet said they were excellent. I raised him on this diet and his joints are fine, especially considering his sister was raised by his breeder on kibble and meat and she had sore elbows for a few months. He is taller and heavier than her, and plays hard, but he's all good. I find it difficult to believe it's so hard to get it right. It's just food. You give them a variety of the foods you know they can eat and they thrive.

corvus

Perhaps I'm reckless with feeding, but I've stopped measuring everything. I get pet meat in 1kg rolls, cook and mash up a bunch of frozen vegies and every week I pull out a roll of meat and a container of vegies and make up meals in the bowls as I go. I guess. My partner does it half the time and he guesses. We toss in some dairy. We guess how much. When I think of it I give them some kelp powder and brewers yeast. I guess how much. They get fish oil daily because Penny has bad arthritis. Penny also gets glucosamine. I give them bones in the evening. Chicken or lamb or kangaroo, usually. They have an organ meal once a week. Sometimes they get fish. When they get tired of something they stop eating it and we change to something else.

The dogs are doing fine. Kivi just had his bloods done at the vets thanks to him finding a box of ibuprofen pills and eating some. The vet said they were excellent. I raised him on this diet and his joints are fine, especially considering his sister was raised by his breeder on kibble and meat and she had sore elbows for a few months. He is taller and heavier than her, and plays hard, but he's all good. I find it difficult to believe it's so hard to get it right. It's just food. You give them a variety of the foods you know they can eat and they thrive.

Sounds as good as the old days, minus cooked bones. Your dogs will probably outlive their life expectancy. But I also suspect that is because the care you are likely to provide, rather than the specific diet you feed them. And your meals sound delicious. Maybe I can reincarnate as one of your dogs. I'm already potty-trained.

My homecooked recipe comes from a nutritionalist.  My kibble is top of the line, good rep, no recalls, yada, yada.  I don't trust EITHER to be everything so I split the difference by doing kibble for morning and homecooked or raw for dinner.  Raw is at least once a week.

I need to cook twice a week.  That's 20 lbs of meat and other stuff as well.  On rare occassions they get kibble and homecooked mixed if there isn't quite enough but that doesn't happen often.  But, to do this requires dedicated a good chunk of fridge and deep freeze to dog food supplies.  I think it's worth the effort.

mudpuppy

There are many studies in people that indicate consuming lots of fruits and vegetables confers a strong boost to health. When they try to replicate this effect using artifical cocktails of supplements they can't and often they see a detrimental effect on health. Kibble is the ultimate in artificial cocktails of supplements. I strongly suspect that there are many micronutrients in foods we haven't discovered yet. I strongly suspect that many micronutrients are not very stable and are destroyed during the extensive processing that occurs as kibble is created and stored. The only consistent theme that comes up in nutrition studies is that species-appropriate diets that are fresh and contain a wide variety of ingredients seem to be the healthiest.

Absolutely ...

I may seem overly cavalier to some but I measure very little.  I know how much meat is in it because I buy enough packages to make as many pounds as I need ... Then I *do* add calcium (but I usually over-measure that) but from there?  measure? nope.  I try for at least six types of veggies a week -- some of that is usually fruit.  Partly I'm influenced by how much TIME I have for it to all cook this week (I wish I could use kale almost every week but the darned stuff just takes SO long to cook).  I hate over-using the food processor because it takes bulk that *I* think they need and purees it to nothing. 

I want them to feel pleasantly full -- I want them to feel good after they eat. And I don't want to find pieces of this or that in poop. So I cook and mostly I use a plain old potato masher. 

I tend to add until the basin I use is "full enough".  Because I cook for four dogs and it needs to last six days or I"m in trouble.  (cos I work long days and NO WAY can I "cook" for the dogs on Thursday -or some mid-week- night! it's not happening!)

Sometimes I use pre-shredded stuff -- coleslaw mix can be a GOOD friend.  So can "broccoslaw" -- dog's really don't care if it's the broccolli trunks as long as they're grated up and cooked.  They DON'T like "chunks".  But the weeks I'm super short on time I might use such pre-packaged grated but fresh stuff.  I might use frozen veggies like chopped turnip greens.  In fact I usually DO use at least some. 

But I don't measure -- I simply use my eye for quantity.  And I read -- I may add something "extra" -- if I suspect magnesium is low (maybe somebuddy got a blood test and it WAS low -- that's happened before) then everbuddy gets apricots!!  Do they mind?  nope.

Some days I DO just stand in front of the frozen foods or the fresh foods and LOOK.  What do I reach over week after week and why don't I feed THAT?  Wait a minute -- just because *I* hate, loathe, and despise asparagus doesn't mean I should elminate it from the dog's food.  Now I might process THAT because I don't want to smell it cook -- but it will go in there.

a couple of months ago when Billy had his little liver flare up -- one of the things Dr. D suggested I add was raw wild greens that had been food processed and just stir it in after everything was cool.  She also suggested I add 6-8 radishes to the food processor (again raw).

They liked it.  No problemo.  Those things are liver cleansers.  So now ... it's something I'm going to do routinely every so often.  Maybe not frequently -- but surely once in a while. 

Sometimes I go to bodegas (Spanish fruit/food markets) -- just to get different ideas.  Because it looks different, maybe is different things than my regular store carries -- different prices -- it enables me to change it up and that's GOOD because it adds a better variety, different vitamins and minerals -- it helps me do a better job.

Measure?  It's just not part of MY life.  I guess you can try to micro-manage this, but you know what?  You're only going to achieve perfection if every single one of your sources was also PERFECT. 

But there is real life out there -- and fresh food is just common sense. 

mudpuppy

A bag of corn with some chicken by-products and some artificial supplements that is far from being fresh is kind of the exact opposite diet one would choose for a dog following these guidelines.

I don't think the inferior ingredients are even what completely horrifies ME -- I think the fact that it is processed until it is a brown liquid that is then passed thru a machine and DRIED into uniform chunks and it is a consistency that allows that -- and THEN it's stored for months and even years in some storehouse?  That just doesn't even make sense to me anymore. 

jessies_mom

[ Basically, Mordanna said Preference was balanced as it was, but when meat was added, it wasn't a balanced formula anymore.  Different meats have varying amounts of minerals and phosphorus. When a kibble is formulated, for example, the nutrients in the type of meat meal used are taken into consideration in balancing the food. I don't know how much you need to worry about this though; perhaps you could ask HK?

 I don't see how their Preference formula could be balanced as it has NO meat in it.

This formula has only veggie/fruits in a dehydrated formula and specifically states to add meat to it. It also states on the box that it's NOT balanced and should only be used along with meat and/or temporary supplementation.

HK does have other formulas that do contain meat and they are balanced as is, IIRC.

I don't think the inferior ingredients are even what completely horrifies ME -- I think the fact that it is processed until it is a brown liquid that is then passed thru a machine and DRIED into uniform chunks and it is a consistency that allows that -- and THEN it's stored for months and even years in some storehouse?  That just doesn't even make sense to me anymore. 

yup. Even the top-of-the-line kibbles suffer from this drawback.

if you read Segal's works you find that the most common problem with random home-made diets seem to be imbalances in minerals, and after reading her books you can pretty easily avoid these problems yourself without doing tons of math or measuring every microgram of nutrients you put in. Zinc, copper, and potassium are usually deficient; if a lot of beef is fed iron may be in excess. And of course you have to add calcium if you're not feeding bone.

I don't see how Preference can be balanced after adding meat. Pre-meat it says it's 12% protein, 1.5% calcium, 0.65% phosphorus dry matter. If you mix 140 g wet chicken with 100 g dry Preference, and re-convert back to dry matter basis, now you've got 44% protein, 1.2% calcium, and 0.78% phosphorus. The original amount of calcium isn't high enough to "balance" the meat you add unless you add very little meat, in which case your protein % is going to be quite low. Plus it says it has things like iron, zinc, copper in it, but if you add beef vs. chicken you'll end up with very different amounts of these minerals. It also has only a limited number of added vitamins/minerals listed as being present in their pre-mix. Go look at the long list of nutrients in Balance It for comparison. Although perhaps Preference's veg and stuff provides these things.
How much meat per unit measure of Preference do you add?