GREAT DANE LADY...NEW ARTICLE ON GRAINS

jenns

 If cats are obligate carnivores, than why is there so much grain in commercial cat kibble?

Because it's cheap? Because up until recently, pet food manufacturers didn't know how to produce kibble that wasn't starch-packed (you'll note they still can't make a kibble that's starch free)?

Kovu's kibble is grain-free and 7% carbs. If he needed carbs, would he be thriving on it? I think not.

BTW, obligate carnivore means the animals NEEDS meat (or nutrients found ONLY in meat) to survive. Not that they can't have plant-matter in their diets.

chelsea_b

Kovu's kibble is grain-free and 7% carbs. If he needed carbs, would he be thriving on it? I think not.

  Chelsea; which brand is that; I may try it for our cats.

chelsea_b

jenns

 If cats are obligate carnivores, than why is there so much grain in commercial cat kibble?

Because it's cheap? Because up until recently, pet food manufacturers didn't know how to produce kibble that wasn't starch-packed (you'll note they still can't make a kibble that's starch free)?

Kovu's kibble is grain-free and 7% carbs. If he needed carbs, would he be thriving on it? I think not.

BTW, obligate carnivore means the animals NEEDS meat (or nutrients found ONLY in meat) to survive. Not that they can't have plant-matter in their diets.

Oh, I knew the answer Chelsea, it was just a rhetorical question.  I'm always seeing people making excuses for the pet food companies to use so much grain in their foods by using the "dogs are omnivores" thing.  Yet no one seems to have an excuse for why it's the same way for cat food.

jenns

Oh, I knew the answer Chelsea, it was just a rhetorical question.  I'm always seeing people making excuses for the pet food companies to use so much grain in their foods by using the "dogs are omnivores" thing.  Yet no one seems to have an excuse for why it's the same way for cat food.

And ya'll are so cute when your being condescending. I've answered the cat question before, you just don't want to read the answer, which didn't make my answer wrong, it just means you didn't want to read it, wihch somehow makes it go away.

And dogs are omnivores, which won't be changed by this debate. But please, some more condescending comments - the last ones were delicious.

ron2

jenns

Oh, I knew the answer Chelsea, it was just a rhetorical question.  I'm always seeing people making excuses for the pet food companies to use so much grain in their foods by using the "dogs are omnivores" thing.  Yet no one seems to have an excuse for why it's the same way for cat food.

And ya'll are so cute when your being condescending. I've answered the cat question before, you just don't want to read the answer, which didn't make my answer wrong, it just means you didn't want to read it, wihch somehow makes it go away.

And dogs are omnivores, which won't be changed by this debate. But please, some more condescending comments - the last ones were delicious.

Actually, I did read your post Ron.  You state that your cat lived until 16 on Delicat, but you still refer to cats as obligate carnivores and dogs omnivovres.  Just because dogs can digest and utilize plant matter does not make them omnivores.  I think there is misconception that omnivore refers to an animal that eats both plant and animal matter.  This is not true.  All carnivores can, and do, consume plant matter.  The difference is that ominivores can thrive without any animal protein.  Since dogs do need at least some animal protein to thrive, they are not omnivores.  Humans can be perfectly healthy, and in fact are often more healthy, eating a vegetarian diet.  That is an example of an omnivore.

jenns

Oh, I knew the answer Chelsea, it was just a rhetorical question.

Hahaha, oh. Ooops. Sorry. 

jessies_mom

Chelsea; which brand is that; I may try it for our cats.

Evo. 

jenns

Humans can be perfectly healthy, and in fact are often more healthy, eating a vegetarian diet.  That is an example of an omnivore.

From what I understand, humans who are vegetarians or vegans have to add some supplements they need that are found in meat and not in vegetables. That is, eating only the vegetables without the supplements causes a deficiency in humans.

Dogs are omnivores and that is the perception of a number of scientists, including observers in the field. Such as the lady I read of that tracked coyotes through the Adirondack and analyzed their diets through their scat.

But I have stated that cats are obligate carnivores. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe they are a little bit omnivore, too. Misty lived another year on Purina NF, as in nitrogen free extract, as in protein from vegetable matter that did not contain or involve the release of nitrogen. See, when you consume animal protein, nitrogen is released and filtered out by the kidneys and passed out in the urine. When the kidneys don't work so well, the nitrogen backs up in the system, creating lethargy and nausea. Eating the NF gave her protein and allowed the kidneys to have an easier time. Out in the wild, she might not have eaten processed vegetable matter that could give her protein and eased up on the kidneys. She would have died a year earlier, perhaps. I could have fed her as a truly obligate carnivore and she would have not lived as long. So, under the new math, she was 74 when she passed on. Under the old math, she was 119. Are there any 74 year-olds or even any 119-year-olds that don't have an organ slowing down?

Of course, out in the wild, she might not have lived long. Run over by a car. Eaten by a bigger animal. Dead from parasitic infection or complications of birthing a litter.

Again, she lived for 16 years on Delicat and 1 year on Purina NF, making for a grand total of 17 years.

My friends who's adopted daughter is our goddaughter have a 17 year old white Tabby named Myra who is still living on Science Diet K/D. It's the only thing she can eat that doesn't come back up that she likes. And she still has what it takes to bug you until you give her the proper attention and respect.

And my dog eats grass, roots, leaves, and wild pecans, all without provocation from me. I guess he hasn't read the websites that say he isn't suppose to want to eat vegetation. I'm going to have to teach him to read, I guess.

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 Gee Ron,  are you sure you did not teach him to eat that stuff he is not suppose to?  LOL  Heck, my Irish Setter I lost to bone cancer at 12 1/2 years of age would clean out my garden of tomatoes, yellow squash, and most of the greem peppers.. He loved tossed salad, melons, just about any veggie or fruit he could get hold of.  And I did not teach him that either.  It was his preference.  I have told the story before of how we all dashed out ot the house to see a HUGE rat (probably a possem) and when we came back in Boots was on the table eating not the spaghett nor meat sauce nor bread, but the tossed salad.  If he did not prefer it, why eat it over the meat sauce that was full of met?

chelsea_b

jessies_mom

Chelsea; which brand is that; I may try it for our cats.

Evo. 

 Thanks; I'll give it a try. They didn't like the Wellness Core fish formula, and they usually aren't picky.

jessies_mom

They didn't like the Wellness Core fish formula, and they usually aren't picky.

ron2

From what I understand, humans who are vegetarians or vegans have to add some supplements they need that are found in meat and not in vegetables. That is, eating only the vegetables without the supplements causes a deficiency in humans.

That is absolutely incorrect, a proper vegetarian or vegan diet does not require supplementation.  Sure, if your eating habits are unhealthy than it wouldn't hurt, but the same can be said for people who eat an unhealthy omnivorouse diet. Meat provides nothing to the diet other than protein, fat, iron and B vitamins, all of which are found in non-meat food sources.

ron2

Dogs are omnivores and that is the perception of a number of scientists, including observers in the field. Such as the lady I read of that tracked coyotes through the Adirondack and analyzed their diets through their scat.

Most scientists, and almost all general scientific literature and textbooks, classify both Felids and Canids as carnivores. The carnivore classification is not based only on diet but also on physiology including dentition and digestive tract.  If you google the word "carnivore", canids and felids are always listed as examples.   If you are going to say canids are herbivores because they also consume plant matter, than you would have reclassify all mammalian species that are currently considered carnivores into the omnivore category, including cats. 

jenns

Most scientists, and almost all general scientific literature and textbooks, classify both Felids and Canids as carnivores. 

jenns

If you are going to say canids are herbivores because they also consume plant matter, than you would have reclassify all mammalian species that are currently considered carnivores into the omnivore category, including cats. 

     There are animals that are carnivorous, omnivorous, and herbivorous in the order Carnivora. Part of a dog's anatomy is more similar to bears and raccoons than wolves; dogs have a posteriorly recurved coronoid margin to the ascending process of the lower jaw, which wolves do not have, but omnivorous carnivores such as raccoons and bears do.  

jessies_mom

Part of a dog's anatomy is more similar to bears and raccoons than wolves; dogs have a posteriorly recurved coronoid margin to the ascending process of the lower jaw, which wolves do not have, but omnivorous carnivores such as raccoons and bears do.  

Which is a simpler, less bulky jaw hinge, positioned in the zygomatic arch, which may allow more lateral movement. In any case, it will affect what the mandible does.

The observed behavior of canids, from wolves to dogs, is that they eat vegetation, sometimes straight from the plant, regardless of the fact that they have carnassials, regardless of the fact they are classified in carnivora. Is it a mistake to have canids classified as carnivora? Maybe so. But we're stuck with it. In response to my statement of scientists observing omnivorous behavior, it was brought up that science also classified the canid as a carnivore. And it's possible that who ever decided canid belonged in carnivora has not really watched them. Regardless of that, the observed behavior of canids is that the are omnivorous, regardless of taxonomic classification.

And according to other sources, receive benefit from eating vegetation.

ron2

The observed behavior of canids, from wolves to dogs, is that they eat vegetation, sometimes straight from the plant,

 And how much of this observed diet consists of grains?

ron2

And according to other sources, receive benefit from eating vegetation.

 More vegetation than meat, though?

jenns

More vegetation than meat, though?

The Maned Wolf of S.A. at certain points in the year will have a diet consisting up to 50 percent vegetable matter, including a plant it likes so much the people named it Fruta Lobo, wolf's fruit. Granted, 50 percent is not a majority. 51 percent is, though. What if, one year, a Maned Wolf miscalculated and accidently ate 51 percent?

Good question about grains. I know that wild canids that hunt ungulates will eat the stomach contents, which may contain some wild grains. And they are eating the flesh and swallowing the blood that contains constituent components of these grains. You are what you eat, you are also what your prey eats.