Meat/meat-meal

jenns

It depends on whether the sales rep believes in what they are saying, believes in the product they are selling and is educated enough on the subject to even have a credible opinion.  That's the difference between one who is "lying", one who thinks they are telling the truth but is in fact lying, and one who is truly passing on credible information that is worth the customer's consideration. 

I guess then it would be up to us to decide if someone is credible.  It would be nice to think the sales rep does believe in what they are selling....but don't thing that is always true. But if they dont say what the company they work for wants them to say...they won't be there for long.

I can tell you about the BJ salesman talking about his 2 dogs and how great they look and how healthy they are and he was going on and on and on about them ( shoot....I was listening so well that I can't even remember what kind they are )  Funny part is he was trying to sell me BilJac kibble and I told him several times that if I am going to feed my dog kibble, I am sticking with Eagle Pack.  But I do believe in believes in what he is selling....and I didn't shake him in the least with anything that I knew.  

I'll try this again and hopefully, I won't tick anyone off, though it is a natural talent of mine. Nothing to be proud just something I am prone to do. Anyway, this biljac salesman is telling you this, as if freezers exist in no part of the world, least of all freighter ships. No, they couldn't possibly have freezers. Oops, sorry. Anyway, I think this biljac salesman was being pushy and talking out his keister. And I do not think that Glenda's DS is cut from the same cloth. For one thing, Glenda would not put with disingenuous behavior from her sons, as I imagine. Second, I have encountered a Blue Buffalo rep at the PetSmart in Sherman. A nice young man who happens to be studying German in college (that led to an interesting foreign language exchange in the midst of rednecks.)

Not all salesmen are bad. And not all know what they are talking about. Some are more motivated by the sale, others are more motivated by customer relationships. This forum had no problem complaining about pushy Nutro reps. Well, I think this was a pushy biljac rep, willing to say anything to make the sale, even if it was inaccurate. Such types would try to sell shoes to a snake. And totally unlike Glenda's DS.

But there are salesman who lie as easy as they breath. In my opinion, about the second or third time you mentioned sticking with Eagle Pack, I would have backed off and dropped it. But I'm not a salesman, good or bad. I'm just a pain-in-the-neck that means well, even if I don't always express it the way I mean to express it.

But Ron..what you don't understand is this....the salesman didn't approach me at all...I approached him. He was putting together a display.   I walked up to him to ask him a few questions about the frozen BJ.   They had a thing where you can get a special price if they deliver the frozen in quantity.....and I wanted to know if they still did do that.     

He had sample packages of kibble and asked if I ever tried it and I told him about my boss dog that we fed it to when I worked at the embroidery company, but that I have no interest in changing kibble....that I was only interested in the frozen in the BJ line.    He asked me why I wasn't interested in the kibble and I told him that 1. I had a kibblecompany  that I totally trusted and 2. I didn't like the ingredients in their kibble.  

And he went on to talk about their protein % ( which is good ) and of course talked about the way their kibble is made at a lower temperature and not cooked twice, and that they don't need to spray fat back on.  Thats good,,,right?  Of course we talked about the by-products in it which of course is the topic of conversation.......   They get their ingredients from farms around them...in Medina Ohio.....including their chickens.    Read their website,  its kind of the same kind of company that I like Eagle Pack for, a small family owned company.   He did say the only two companies that were not involved at all in the recalls were them and Dads which is another small family owned company.  Someone here said that was BS...but maybe.....   could be since most of the companies get their canned food from Menu and BJ doesn't make canned food.     As far as the lamb coming from New Zealand and being double processes....it is, isn't it? Sure they can freeze the lamb and send it over...but do they?  Is that one of the things we ever talked about, cared about or asked about?  Maybe but I don't remember a conversation about  it.

Seriously, why do we think this guy is a bad guy?   Why is he a lier?  I hate salesmen....all of them. You need to be a certain person to be a sales person.....for sure. But this was a nice guy.....and he obviously likes the food and uses it for his dogs which he was bragging about. So how does that make him a bad guy?  Because you don't like by-products in his food?   Not all by-products are road kill and euthanized dogs like some people would like us to believe.

Sorry. I sound like I am defending BilJac food...or the sales person that I do not know.    But I can't forget how BilJac frozen helped my dane shepherd years ago...so I ALWAYS said if my dane couldn't eat EP that is where I would go back to.   Its NOT kibble...and that is a good thing.  

 Dyan, I'll tell you a story that will make you feel better I hope. 

I've referred to Cord a few times.  He has two issues (well, he has a TON of issues but healthwise just two).  One, he has a terrible bite and little interest in food.  If it drops out of his mouth, he gets bored with it and leaves it.  Two, something I haven't pinned down, but he does best on corn.  He's my next consult with Sabine and I'm hoping we can get to the bottom of it.

When I bought Cord, his owner said he was eating Bil-Jac.  Bil-Jac sponsored a championship points series a few years ago in sheepdog trialing, and lots of BC competitors got discounts, sponsorships, and free food from them.

I just nodded.  Back then I would have said, "Overpriced crap" right along with everyone else here.  I hated non-GMO corn (still kinda do).  I was creeped out at the by-products and the molasses and the BHA.

When we got home, I put Cord on the food I was feeding at the time - half kibble and half raw.  Our kibble was made at the local mill.  All local ingredients.  It had corn in it, but not too much.  It was very similar to the Bil-Jac but without the BHA and it was insanely cheap.

After a while, Cord lost a little condition and started looking not quite as pretty as when I brought him home. I was disappointed - raw's always better, right?

Then our money situation improved and along with everyone else I put him on various grain frees we were doing.  Cord's weight dropped like a stone and he started getting those UTI's and prostate trouble.  His coat looked terrible.  I was frantic - I thought it might have been his teeth, since I could get weight on him by switching him over to complete homecooked (ie, mushy food), but I wasn't ready for that then.

I walked around the pet stores obsessively and finally stopped in front of the Royal Canin diets.  The one for Yorkshire Terriers was made for dental issues.  I tried that and it was magic.  He looked beautiful.  But it was $15 for a tiny little bag, that he went through in less than a week!!

Then I remembered that Bil-Jac kibble has those funny shaped twiggy kibbles.  So did the first kibble he was on, when I was feeding the mill food.  The RC diet has a similar shape - tube shaped kibbles.

So I put him on Bil-Jac Puppy and again we had magic.  Cord on Bil-Jac - beautiful coat, no UTIs, great condition (fat, even, since he doesn't work anymore).  Cord off Bil-Jac and on premiums and even the best grain frees - dry thin brittle dull coat, UTIs every few weeks, not interested in food and loses weight.  Bil-Jac could NOT be all that bad!  The lesson I learned - don't be TOO eager to knock a food.  There really are nasty bad foods out there but generalizations are really difficult.

I kept him on that Bil-Jac with continued good results, until Sabine suggested the common denominator between the RC and Bil-Jac might not be the shape so much as the corn.  I switched to an Eagle Pack Premium kibble and still magic.  Then I went to a home prepared recipe that includes whole grain corn meal, and the magic is still there.  Corn.  Who knew? 

I still use EP Premium for him when I can't cook, like now.  We were just up in Danville picking up his food, in fact.  Cord is eating EP Premium, Lynn's eating Holistic Senior, and everyone else except Lu is eating Wellness Core.  Hubby is cooking for Lu, bless his heart.  I'll be really glad when I'm allowed to cook again - I'm getting tired of all the different bags! 
 

LOL!   Poor Ron.

I see this issue from both sides, having spent most of my life in sales and marketing.  MY personal creedo is never ever lie to a client.  However, I know that many sales types don't follow that.  I want a client for a lifetime, not for a quick buck.  I'd rather have long term folks who trust that what I can say they can take to the bank, then a bunch of short termers who have been disappointed that what I said wasn't "quite" true.

For many of these reps, it's a job, a source of income.  But, I truly think that some of the better companies really seek out folks who really care, people who are honest and care about their own personal integrity.

Now figuring out which is which, can be the challenge!

glenmar

For many of these reps, it's a job, a source of income.  But, I truly think that some of the better companies really seek out folks who really care, people who are honest and care about their own personal integrity.

I guess we can't figure out which is which so we come to the dog forums and go over it with our friends.  LOL!  

Because we all know that if the salesman doesn't represent his company 100%, he isn't working there for long.  Again.... the Nutro girl that I know is a sales rep for a long time...she said she would never quit..makes too much money in the short time she works.   She owned a cat that she was trying to find a home for and never owned a dog and used to recite what what good about Nutro.  I still see her but as the rep now only...she does'nt even work at the embroidery place anymore.   This BL guy is bragging about his two pure bred something or anothers because of how healthy and beautiful they are.   Talk to the EP people and they tell you that most of the people there have dogs and of course they are all on EP and they see first hand how great the food is. 

Becca.....yes....I do see what you are saying.   I am on a couple of Dane boards......just to tell you that several people do use BJ kibble ...almost none use EP...( some talk about how they used to but stopped over the past couple of years )  Before I got Gibby I went and looked at a Dane in the city next to me, she was a BYB  (certainly not a show person ) looking to rehome a female that had to be spayed....checking out her website...she only feeds BJ kibble...and wanted her buyers to stay with it because its the best in her opinion.    And then there is Gibbys breeder who IS a show person...his Dad is a winner in Canada......but she wanted me to stick with Pedigree.     Humph....maybe I should have...

I still think what I do about some salesman. Like, for example, when I was looking at new cars, I went to one dealership and told him how I wanted a fuel economy car that could seat 4 adults and some luggage. And he kept trying to sell me a $40k Silverado truck. He's looking for that commission and trying to sell trucks when gas was sky-high.

So, now, I take it, I am wrong about the Biljac rep you were talking to and am confused as to what the problem was. So, I'll shut up now.

ron2

I still think what I do about some salesman. Like, for example, when I was looking at new cars,

Okay...so sorry if I offend anyone....but CAR SALESMEN ARE THE  WORST!    I will never forget my DH getting up at a new cars sales office....saying "what do you think,,,that I just fell out of a tree?" and walked out leaving me and the salesman sitting there.

ron2

So, now, I take it, I am wrong about the Biljac rep you were talking to and am confused as to what the problem was. So, I'll shut up now.

Gee,,,this conversation when to hell in a hurry.  Sorry that  I offended you Ron...your my friend...I wouldn't do that. AND I tried to PM you to tell you that---where is your profile,,,its gone!       Reading back trying to figure out what is going on....I guess two conversations that are rolled into one.  1. meat/meat meal and 2. Sales reps.   

 This is where I was going when I started this conversation:

Then we got into the conversation of meat vs meat meal......he almost convinced me that the meat might be better, talking about how they MAKE meat meal. ALMOST I say.....  

and I know people here ( including me ) are saying meal meal is better.  But then...he is saying when its cooked twice...how can it be better.   And it makes me think twice.      I suppose that is why I started the conversation and then thru in a few other things that he said.   Such as by-products... lamb from New Zealand and two companies that were not affected by the last recall.  Somehow this guy, who I thought was kind of nice, was made to me "not so nice!"

So getting back to the subject at hand... is most meat that is in pet food such as lamb from New Zealand....cooked before it gets here?  Or do they freeze tons and tons of lamb and let the pet food company make it all up?   Is it really cooked twice?    And because of it....IS it missing some nutrients....and since most kibble has to have fat sprayed on....maybe the nutrients are also low?   Of course they add vitamins...so the pet is still getting those. BUT IS food that is processed at lower heat and not made into dry food...  is it possible that they have more nutrients intact???    

Extrusion is done at high heat levels.  Whether it's meat or meal, anything heat sensitive is dead, whether you cook it once or twice or at supposedly lower temps or what.  If it's exposed to enough heat to make it stable at room temps, then the enzymes and amino acids and vitamins in question are converted.

Meat meal is used to offer more high quality protein in a  form that is almost as portable, shelf stable, and inexpensive form as various types of glutens (vegetable protein).  Cooking once or twice doesn't change this.  Only burning to a crisp, ie, changing the protein to mineral form, would denature it enough to make it useless to the dog.

Hmmm, I sold cars.  And before anyone gets all defensive it was the WORST 10 months of my life.  I hated it.  I couldn't "close" like they wanted me to because I could NOT look a man in the eye and say "you mean you have to ask your WIFE if you can buy this??" when I knew I'd KILL my own DH if he committed us to something like that without conversation.  And yep, you were supposed to, not exactly lie, but sure skirt the truth like it was a posed to strike rattler!

brookcove

Extrusion is done at high heat levels.  Whether it's meat or meal, anything heat sensitive is dead, whether you cook it once or twice or at supposedly lower temps or what.  If it's exposed to enough heat to make it stable at room temps, then the enzymes and amino acids and vitamins in question are converted.

Meat meal is used to offer more high quality protein in a  form that is almost as portable, shelf stable, and inexpensive form as various types of glutens (vegetable protein).  Cooking once or twice doesn't change this.  Only burning to a crisp, ie, changing the protein to mineral form, would denature it enough to make it useless to the dog.

 Agreed.  The meat is highly processed either way no matter how many times it's cooked.  Freeze-drying is really the only way to keep meat stable at room temperature without denaturing anything.

glenmar

Hmmm, I sold cars. 

Geez Glenda....I'm batting 0 with you in this conversation....sorry!!!!      I knew someone was going to answer that as soon as I wrote it.....didn't think it would be you though.

LOL!!  Re read my post and you'll see how totally uninsulted I am!  I absolutely HATED doing that job.

glenmar

when I knew I'd KILL my own DH if he committed us to something like that without conversation. 

Right on, sister. I've always included my wife in such major economic decisions. She was with me when I looked at and bought my car. She was so happy with it, too, which was important to me. It fits our lifestyle, now. We went to a family reunion and it was actuall easier for her parents to go in my car because we could fit his walker into it easier than their Chevy Malibu. It suits our life better than my old truck, which was in need of more repairs besides the rebuilt motor put into it.