Meat/meat-meal

I think that's rather harsh Ron.  DS doesn't lie for a living.  He tells the absolute truth, and I've heard him chatting with customers often enough that I know he isn't just sharing company propaganda.  I remember the conference call when they recalled the cans, and the company was very upset that anything under their label had been produced in a plant that was uing shady ingredients.

One thing to consider with by products....even if they are just nice clean organs, a dogs diet should AVERAGE 5% organ meat per day.  If the primary meat source i organ, then it seems like this is a bit of overkill.

oh but it's not Glenda. The real main ingredient in Bil-jac is corn and the processed frames of chickens (chicken by-product meal). They do the common trick of putting "wet" meats first, then grains, then the icky slaughterhouse garbage product chicken by-product meal. So in actual fact there probably isn't all that much organ meat in there. Mostly corn and unregulated no-quality-control varies from batch to batch slaughterhouse garbage left in open unrefrigerated bins at the slaughterhouse before being rendered into meal to be sold to dog-food companies.

Dry select formula:

Chicken By-Products (Organs only, Including Chicken Liver), Chicken, Corn, Chicken By-Product Meal, .....

 So let's see. It's around 41% carbohydrates. Most of which comes from the corn. Corn is around 70% carbohydrates. Which means in a 100 pound batch of dry Bil-jac there must be around 60 pounds of dry corn.  If we take 80 pounds of wet organs, that's only contributing 12 dry pounds; take 70 pounds of wet chicken meat, that's only contributing 10 dry pounds, and add in 15 pounds of dry chicken by product meal you get a better feel for what the "real" ingredient list might  look like:

60% dry corn; 15% dry chicken by-product meal; 12% dry organs; 10% dry chicken meat.

At least 5% of the so-called 27% protein level is incomplete poor quality protein from the corn. Sells for around $1.50 a pound.

And consider if it's all of the viscera of the chicken in those organs it's a lot of intestine, gizzard, lung, heart, not that much liver.

compare it to THIS, one of the better offerings from Science Death, which also goes for around $1.50 a pound:

47% carbohydrates. Several carb sources.

It can be interpreted as around 67% carb sources, around 30% dry chicken. Probably around 20% good usable meat source protein. Only example here with no ingredients of questionable quality.

ron2

Any food item would frozen or preserved in shipping. The salesman was lying.

I didn't understand what you are saying here Ron...can you explain?

glenmar

DS doesn't lie for a living.  He tells the absolute truth, and I've heard him chatting with customers often enough that I know he isn't just sharing company propaganda. 

Hey Glenda....sorry!  When I said 

But like you said Glenda.....salesmen are salesmen...they are here to sell and that is what they do when they tell us what we want to here. Why would I believe the Blue salesman any more than the BilJac guy or EP John for that matter?   I didn't realize that your son was a sales person for Blue.  Or I would not have said that......  However.....why WOULD we believe one salesman and not another?   I have talked to several people from the BJ company over time..... by phone.  I just happened to run into this sales guy and we got to talking, mainly because right now I am buying BJ frozen for Gibson because of the digestibility of it...AND the fact that it was the only food that my Dane/Shepherd could eat a while back...everything else gave her diarrhea.  My vet suggested it. It was THE premium food of the day back then. And it worked so well for Cindy.

Not to worry Dyan.  I do think that Blue looks for people who have some basic understanding of nutrition first and foremost, and then provides product specific information.

I guess I look at what I'm told, what I can see on the label, and from there figure out what reps are honest and which ones are just feeding me the party line.

It is an argument Dr Wysong has used for years... Meat meal is cooked twice.. Once to remove the water content.. And another when making the Kibble.. Fresher real  meat is cooked once..  In the end it is the protein that comes from meat that becomes important and its amino acid profile. Hence the companies that actually provide you with an N/A like Natura does are what determines the benefit of a kibble diet..  Ask the salesman to provide you with an N/A to support his sales points.

The best kibbles will actually have fresh meat and dry meal ...and the more you see before the added fat the better.

fish n dog

Meat meal is cooked twice.. Once to remove the water content.. And another when making the Kibble.. Fresher real  meat is cooked once.. 

Yes....that is exactly what he said...... now that you said that.  I didn't really remember much of what he said...you just brought this to the light. Of course BJ claim to fame on their kibble is that their process in making their food is that their meat retains their fat the 16% it has is not sprayed on, unlike other kibble.

fish n dog

The best kibbles will actually have fresh meat and dry meal ...and the more you see before the added fat the better.

Meaning, Meat AND meat meal? ( specific meat for those reading this )

I understand what you are saying Glenda....... I feel that way about EP....of course its not the sales rep I have talked to there but the nutritionist. Talking to the people from BJ ( I have talked to a few between the nutritionist and another person by phone....then the sales guy that I just happened to run into ) I to get the same kind of feeling as EP....but of course the ingredients at BJ are not as good from all we read.

I really like John from EP too.  He seems to be a very trustworthy human being.

I've seen some of the reps, notably Science Death, who don't even know what the heck the defination of by product is, extolling the virtues of their food, peanut hulls and all!  And many of the Nutro reps are just so darned pushy I can't listen to a word they say without getting ticked, so I don't know how much they actually know.

I do know with Blue, the job is more to educate people than to push the food.  Most people want to do right by their animals, but just don't KNOW what right is and they tend to fall victim to the tv advertising.  People don't understand about the common allergins, and don't get that the typical place for an intolerance or allergy to show up is the skin, the coat and the ears.  They think that cleaning up bushels full of fur every day is normal.

I guess what I personally have problems with are foods that I know are lower quality with reps swearing they are the best thing since sliced bread.  I'm afraid I couldn't lie as convincingly as they do!

Also there is a myth that companies that use fresh meat are somehow being cheap, these companies have huge refrigeration costs,including on site refrigerators and refrigerated trucking that companies that use a dried meal that comes in a barrel don't have to deal with,.  I find it somewhat ironic that many people that agree that fresh foods are the best way to feed a dog then contradict themselves and say meals are better than fresh chicken, while these meals are cooked and dried out and sit in a barrel until needed, not unlike protein powders that body builders would use. So I am of the opinion that if the amino acid profile of the food is being met and the protein levels are being met, why not use the fresh stuff, that is only cooked once.  Also, corn being used as an ingredient has minimal protein in it, if a company wants to increase the level of protein in a food with a plant source, they would use corn gluten meal.  The bottom line is that the companies that use the meal will advertise and market that it is superior ingredient, and the companies that use the fresh stuff will do the same, so the only way to cut through all the mysths and the marketing is to try a particular food and see what results you get.

glenmar

I think that's rather harsh Ron.  DS doesn't lie for a living.  He tells the absolute truth, and I've heard him chatting with customers often enough that I know he isn't just sharing company propaganda.  I remember the conference call when they recalled the cans, and the company was very upset that anything under their label had been produced in a plant that was uing shady ingredients.

Do I really have to explain this? Evidently, I do.

Did I specifically mention your DS? No.

Did I say that all salesmen everywhere in the world at all times are lying? No.

Does your DS being a salesman mean I have to take back what I said? No, there are exceptions to every rule.

Seriously, if someone here has a problem with a truckdriver and my brother drove a truck for the better part of two decades and they curse truckdrivers, does that mean I need to take it personally as a insult against my brother? Or just let the person say their piece with the knowledge that they weren't talking about my brother? I will not bow to "political correctness." You might have won the election, you will not win my freedom of speech.

Is what I said wrong or was the guy in question lying and lying for a living, i.e., getting paid for it? What if I had a relative that worked for the AAFCO? Or Purina? That will in no way stop the slamming that goes on.

Mudpuppy is talking about what she views the processes are and yet the food companies still present this picture of the food other than it actually is (that's called lying) and she's not taking heat for it. Is it simply just my turn?

I'm just waiting for someone to slam assembly and rpg II programmers on old IBM 360 Mainframes. That's what my mom did and if you say some thing about any one of the handful left that even know how to do that, you must be talking about my mom.

glenmar

And many of the Nutro reps are just so darned pushy I can't listen to a word they say without getting ticked

I worked with a Nutro Vet at an embroidery company a few years ago...she is still a rep now. She owns a cat, never had a dog.  People like that know what the company tells them.    But it doesn't matter.....no matter what the sales rep is going to tell you only what the company tells them to say anyway.   I work for a vet....but I can not tell people not to use HW prevention all year around if they live in the cold states...........which is what I do. I have to keep my mouth shut and tell them what our doctor suggests. Actually I am a bad person for that since I don't believe in most of the vaccines that are given........      But talking to the nutritionist is a totally different thing as they are talking from knowlege on what is good and what is bad.   But of course there are different opinions on that also........so we come to the Internet to learn.

I'm just waiting for someone to slam assembly and rpg II programmers on old IBM 360 Mainframes. 

When I worked at the airline, we called mainframers Mushroom Hunters and the floor where they worked the Mushroom Factory.  Of course, I say that with a big wink because without them the planes would have started falling out of the sky. 

Well, it's 8:10 am, here. It might take at least another hour to get my dander up.

My mother passed away 3-14-87. So, she's been out of the programming game for a while, I think. Any mistakes people made since then are, no doubt, because she wasn't there to prevent them. I had to learn a long time ago not to get upset about what people say, even about my mother. The last few fights I was in as a kid were because of what I thought someone said about my mother. I got over it. Mostly.

 OK, back to topic.  Keep it civil too, please.

dyan

But it doesn't matter.....no matter what the sales rep is going to tell you only what the company tells them to say anyway.  

 It depends on whether the sales rep believes in what they are saying, believes in the product they are selling and is educated enough on the subject to even have a credible opinion.  That's the difference between one who is "lying", one who thinks they are telling the truth but is in fact lying, and one who is truly passing on credible information that is worth the customer's consideration.