Amount of iron in EVO

fish n dog

Perhaps the OP can start fresh and include some of the responses from Mordanna. And this may be a good time for me to start looking at feeding raw. These Pet Food Companies are giving me stress instead of convenience.

  I don't think Mordanna will mind; she's always willing to share nutritional information; http://www.ourdogsonline.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/183633/Help_balancing_kibble_topper#Post183633;

"The NRC Recommendations you mention are recommended daily allowances for individual dogs of a specific body weight, not minimums.

Commercial foods are formulated in a completely different way, since
1. AAFCO follows completely different nutritional guidelines (over 20 years outdated, really) than NRC.
2. they are intended to be fed to dogs of all sizes, so nutrient content increases linearly (two cups contain twice the nutrients of one cup and so on), while NRC RDA's are calculated based on body weight in kg ^ 0.75. As a result, the larger the dog, the more oversupplementation becomes an issue, because nutrient requirements per kg (or pound) decrease with increasing body weight.

As a result of "mass formulation" vs. "individual formulation" it's very difficult to compare commercial foods to what would be the "ideal" composition for the individual dog, but one of the columns of the NRC publication does give the data necessary to compare based on 1,000 kcal rather than a specific body weight. The result is the same though, many ratios are way off, due to AAFCO using outdated numbers.
 

Here's what the NRC publication says:

Free Fe [Iron] in the body is extremely reactive, catalyzing oxidative reactions that can lead to tissue damage. When only a small amount of Fe is ingested, it is firmly bound to proteocytes such as apoferritin, transferrin, and hemosiderin in enterocytes, plasma, and storage sites such as macrophages. Iron resulting from hemoglobin degradation is efficiently reutilized but is virtually always present in protein-bound form. However, the total binding capacity of all such proteins is small and can be overwhelmed by intake of larger amounts of Fe, resulting in the presence of toxic amounts of free Fe in the system.

It goes on to say there are only very few studies of toxic effects of iron in dogs, but even relatively small doses of ferrous sulfate (12 mg per kg of body weight per day - and the sulfate form is not very absorbable!) caused mild damage to the gastrointestinal tract."

  She also says that iron from plant sources isn't absorbed as well so it's less likely to result in over supplementation.
 

[quote user= "fish n dog]"If any of this is true it may be a major cause of illness in our dogs...[\quote]

  I think it *may* have a cumulative effect over time, and it's not just iron. For example, Jessie's getting twice the recommended amount of zinc and chloride, and about two and a half times the recommended amount of iodine and sodium. I have no idea what effect that has but I wonder if that's why larger dogs have kidney or liver problems when they're, say, around ten or early teens? I scheduled a diet consultation with Mordanna before learning about this and it's a relief to know Jessie won't be on kibble much longer.
 

kpwlee

Lets keep this civil please - no personal attacks please

 You're right; I'm very sorry. 

Kibble contains a lot of bone and marrow, and blood. 

No on the latter point.  No more blood than grocery store meats, maybe less.  The more you work with meat, the more blood it loses.  And the carcasses start out hung. 

I think it actually has to say blood meal if blood is included in the meat meal.  I could be wrong on that.

But, that's beside the point.  It's not the blood or lack thereof where you are getting the overages.  It's the mineral premix that is added, because kibble has to add, as a necessity of manufacturing, a lot of less nutritiously dense stuff like potatoes and white rice and other grains. 

In order for Jetta or my Zhi to be supplied with a more or less correct level of micronutrients, Karen's Bugsy has to get up to four or five times the amount that the NRC has recently published as ideal for "optimum health."  That's not a minimum, nor is it an upward limit.

The point of all this is that first, kibble makers have no work around for this fact.  So it will be true of the cheapest, yuckiest food, as well as stuff that is $4 a pound, all organic and handmade by grannies in 100 year old kitchens.

Second, we're not talking levels that are over to the point where a healthy dog can't handle it, most likely.  And iron isn't hugely scary.  Copper is more of a problem, in my mind, because of how it is stored in the liver, and its effect on zinc uptake. 

So, the big point is one that I think a lot of us can agree on, but for once it's a matter of numbers and not "he said, she said."  Kibble is not the ideal way to feed a dog.  But, we do a lot of things to dogs that are not ideal - we walk them on leashes, we live in crowded cities, we put tap water in their bowls instead of bottled or distilled, we use chemicals around them, we give them chew treats that are made in Mexico or South America, we make them sleep on their beds or in crates instead of wherever they want.

It's a matter of finding your own happy place with regard to your dog's care.  If your dog is healthy, it's not a hill to die on, I don't think.  I have high performance dogs, and one in less than ideal health, and one senior dog - I want, therefore, to provide nutrition that is as close to "optimum" as possible. 

Ok, this is getting crazy.

My dogs have eaten Evo- small bites (because it's more available), large bites, and RF(periodically)- for YEARS.  Literally years.

ALL of my dogs have had more than one FULL BLOOD PANEL done- baseline bloodwork once a year that includes a 12 panel and a CBC, and they are all perfectly healthy.  All results are not only within normal RANGE, but are right on the money where they should be.

We can run all the numbers we want, but I think that speaks for itself.  If I can find the bloodwork, I will post the results later.

There may be a "better" food than Evo out there, but it works for me.  I say if you feed Evo, or any food, and you're worried about your dog, go get a panel done.  That's really the only way to know for sure what's going on in there.

I have to say I dislike being on the "doom and gloom" side of this because it goes against my grain.  But this is not true:

I say if you feed Evo, or any food, and you're worried about your dog, go get a panel done.  That's really the only way to know for sure what's going on in there.

A dog's kidneys can have lost half their function before a single symptom shows up, as the remaining nephrons can continue to filter waste products fairly efficiently.

Other organs similarly have an amazing ability to compensate for lowered functionality.  But such a condition is not ideal - stress, infection, toxins are all going to be more difficult to process.

My dogs deal with a lot of stress.  They are also exposed to pathogens in waterfowl-infested areas.  So it doesn't make sense to me to force their bodies to deal with free iron, which may irritate the gut and stimulate bacterial activity. 

It's not about this food being better than that or one way of feeding being superior.  It's about what works for you, and what you are comfortable with.  And that's not a lifetime decision either.  You may find down the road that  you prefer the flexibility of a custom feeding plan for your dogs.  And I may find someday that some dog food manufacturer has resolved this situation to my satisfaction and offers a diet that fits my needs.

brookcove

I have to say I dislike being on the "doom and gloom" side of this because it goes against my grain.  But this is not true:

I say if you feed Evo, or any food, and you're worried about your dog, go get a panel done.  That's really the only way to know for sure what's going on in there.

A dog's kidneys can have lost half their function before a single symptom shows up, as the remaining nephrons can continue to filter waste products fairly efficiently.

That's why it's important to get BASELINE bloodwork done every year.

But we agree on this anyway I mean, we agree that each dog and situation requires something different...

brookcove

Karen's Bugsy has to get up to four or five times the amount that the NRC has recently published as ideal for "optimum health."

my guess is that with the amount of kibble he needs to maintain weight he is getting wacked with oversupplementation of darn near everything 

brookcove

we make them sleep on their beds or in crates instead of wherever they want.

I've thought, for a while, that it's possible that iron content is maybe why Emma's condition goes to crap if I feed her a base of kibble. She is a 20 lb dog, and requires the calories of.... something ridiculously bigger. My friend's intact Doberman bitch eats less, in kibble, than Emma ate. Emma is more active, now, than she was, then (because of circumstances, not energy levels, she was pretty much always high energy). Her behind stays the way it belongs, now, instead of being covered in splatters, and so does the wall. I'm happy, with that.

The puppy is eating far more than I'd expected, too. I think it's related to their activity levels, at this point. Emma is finally processing food like it's food (and not... I dunno... poison!), so she's holding onto her weight. They come to work with me, though, and play with other dogs constantly. Emma has obedience and rally classes, every week, and Ena has conformation and rally classes. They're constantly moving and thinking.The poor kids don't get a break!

That's a scary situation - a small dog that is eating a much greater amount of food than the "recommended" guidelines.  Jen was like that too - remember my 20 pound Border Collie?  Still, maybe it won't be too bad.  Let's see.

Here's the recommended allowances for a 20 pound dog (9.07 kg). 

• Copper: 1.56 mg
  
• Zinc: 8.79 mg
• Iron: 5.23 mg

Well, this kind of sucks.  

• Copper: 9 mg
  
• Zinc: 100 mg
• Iron: 187 mg

So, Jen always acted like she was starving, she was always thin, and had bizarre cycles even though there was no fertility problem in the line.   Jen was 20 pounds but ate enough for a 90 pound dog.  I finally got a handle on her after she was spayed, but I remember coincidentally that we also started getting cull chickens, I started raising ducks, and butchering my own sheep for the dog's use.  In other words, whole prey became much more important about that time, and Jen improved immensely.

All the other dogs looked great on EVO and I always thought it was a great product.  I still do have a high opinion of its quality, but it's a good example of how one must look very carefully at all the angles when one has a special needs dog. 

Brookcove.. You are very scary because you are making some real sense .. And explaining this issue so well.. 

And I have tears in my eyes because I lost a dog a few months ago that was my best Bud.. Only 10 yrs 11 months old.. But I fed her kibble her entire life.. I've been scratching my head why she got Lymphoma but these high levels of heavy metals may have been the reason.

 I am thinking of buying some Steve's real food ? My breeder recommends it.. Has anyone tried it ?

It truly, truly isn't my intention to scare anyone or upset anyone.  There are many factors that go into lymphomatic cancers.  Most of them are unavoidable and many are still unknown.

for me, what is comes down to is, asking myself the following:

• Is my dog at a high risk for conditions that are sensitive to stress?
• Is my dog at risk for organ failure?
• Is my dog in a risk group for immune disorders?
• Is my dog working or performing, such that truly balanced nutrition would be helpful?
• Is my dog old, young, or a breed prone to health problems?

Now I assess the risk versus what customized, home prepared feeding would mean in terms of the financial and time resources I have.  I have not so far regretted the two hours it takes a week to prep food, and the few dollars it's meant a month, for the tradeoff in peace of mind - and the dogs' pleasure.  But if someone else's time is worth $100 an hour, or if there are high-needs humans in the house, then commercial products might be their only viable option.

I was in a situation where I was trying to feed kibbles, and it just wasn't working for my sensitive dog.  Thousands of dollars in medical costs, and nearly losing my dog over and over, just wasn't worth it.

But it is certainly a different story for dogs whose health isn't on a razor's edge - ie, most dogs.  None of the figures I calculated, even in the worst case scenario, even approached toxic levels.  The worst case scenario for iron, for instance, was right on the edge of the level described as "mild symptoms" (20 mg/kg of dog weight, or 184 mg, and the amount supplied was 187 mg).

Again, the point is that the claim is often made that we should feed kibble/commercial foods because it's so well balanced.  When in fact it's not, really.  The ratios will always be correct, and that's very important, but if you are depending on kibble to supply microminerals on a daily basis, it's worth looking into to see whether your dog is getting supplied at the right level for his weight according to current science.

That is truly scary, considering that Emma had, at one point, a life threatening liver issue. Excess copper makes things like that worse. She also teetered on the edge of anemia, which is odd. That's Emma, though. Odd

She is now eating around 3% of her body weight in ground raw. She's doing incredibly well. Her weight is nice and normal. Bloodwork's become perfect, over time. The puppy eats a lot more than what's recommended on the bag, too (just because she's a very active puppy). Her skin was really terrible, so I went ahead and switched her to ground raw, too. Instant cure. The next DAY, her skin looked better, and her stools were finally what I'd expect out of a well fed dog.

Excess copper makes things like that worse. She also teetered on the edge of anemia, which is odd. That's Emma, though. Odd

The copper was what I was thinking of.  The free iron would affect anemia one way or another - anemia isn't a shortage of iron, it's a shortage of red blood cells.  A damaged gi will not uptake iron properly, leading to a feedback loop of increased free iron, gi damage, etc.

I call Zhi my "mutant dog."  She's never been able to eat even very high quality  products, with grain.  I had her on EVO as (gasp) a puppy.  It worked fine for her and she's always had great skin, great condition, but her hair quality has always troubled me.  

I switched her to modified prey model about six weeks ago and lo and behold, the hair on her ears and feet is lengthening out.  It will never be lush, as she's too active for that, but as least she will have some fringe, it looks like.

I've always felt kibble wasn't the ideal way to feed, but I wasn't sure what the dividing line was and why it existed.  I'm sure this is a big part of it and I'm happy to say say we are now all switched over.  The last of the working dogs went over this week.  It's just a preliminary diet while I work out the details, but it only took an hour yesterday to prepare and bag up the mushy stuff and fix the little supplement jars (and that was while also fixing dinner for the human family), and I portioned out the raw meaty bones this morning while fixing breakfast and washing up dishes.

I always had a feeling.... just a nagging sensation.... that Ena was having a time with grains. She was on Blue Buffalo and Nutro Ultra, when I got her. I switched her over to Innova, and things looked better, but not good. She's a primitive dog. She's almost an exotic pet! LOL I can't see ever going back, with either dog. I don't do anything special, with them. I just do Bravo ground meats and veggies. Both get fish oil, vit a, c, and e. Both get joint stuff. Ena gets Nuvet Plus. Emma gets milk thistle, and dandelion.

One of these days, I might do a nutritional consult, to see how I'm doing. The results, though? They say I'm not doing half bad.... 

brookcove

Okay, first, wolves don't eat cattle

Slight correction. Wolves do eat cattle. Ask the ranchers who live next to Yellowstone.