Amount of iron in EVO

One of the points that was made, was that this isn't a problem that is unique to EVO (although EVO is heavy on the minerals for sure).  It's the way kibble has to add in the supplemental nutrients - plus the fact that AAFCO uses information from 1982 versus the latest figures from 2006.

NRC now uses a graduated calculation for nutrients (so much per kilogram of dog to the .75th power I think is the way it's put).  So a 100 pound dog doesn't get 10 times the nutrients that a 10 pound dog does, it's more like three if I'm not mistaken.

But, kibble can't supply nutrients to your dog that way.  They can only put in so many grams per kilogram of feed.  So if your 100 pound dog eats 8 times as much as a 5 pound dog, he'll get 8 times as much nutrients across the board, even though his mineral needs are more like 3 times as much.

It was pretty shocking to me too.  I immediately sat down and figured out a schedule to switch all the rest of my dogs over to home prepared - it's only three more dogs.  I'm done with kibble. 

 That is.... alarming. Geez. Ena finished her kibble, yesterday, and started eating raw, with Ems. Her stools instantly became perfect. I was shocked, and amazed. I had a feeling that grain wasn't working for her. I'm guessing I was right.

brookcove

It was pretty shocking to me too.  I immediately sat down and figured out a schedule to switch all the rest of my dogs over to home prepared - it's only three more dogs.  I'm done with kibble. 

  I was shocked too, and very glad that I scheduled a consultation with Mordanna. Makes you wonder how many liver and kidney problems are caused by dogs getting too many nutrients.
 

With all the $$ I spend on Evo I don't expect to hear they are making these kind of oversights.Makes me mad!

Tena

4HAND

With all the $$ I spend on Evo I don't expect to hear they are making these kind of oversights.Makes me mad!

   I've done a little checking and it's not just EVO; for example, Nature's Variety Prairie Lamb Meal and Oatmeal has 263mg/kg of iron whereas EVO has 236mg/kg. If it weighs the same as EVO, your dog would be getting even more iron. I really like Becca's explanation;

NRC now uses a graduated calculation for nutrients (so much per kilogram of dog to the .75th power I think is the way it's put).  So a 100 pound dog doesn't get 10 times the nutrients that a 10 pound dog does, it's more like three if I'm not mistaken.

But, kibble can't supply nutrients to your dog that way.  They can only put in so many grams per kilogram of feed.  So if your 100 pound dog eats 8 times as much as a 5 pound dog, he'll get 8 times as much nutrients across the board, even though his mineral needs are more like 3 times as much.

  Makes me think about kibble in a whole new way.
 

?? 

are you sure ?

Innova Adult lists 569mg/kg

Evo RF 232mg/kg

Would higher Iron values indicate a greater blood content ? Marrow ?

I've had some issues with Natura 's Web page showing inaccurate info. Did you contact them ?

There's no way to tell how much extra iron any one dog can handle.  Every dog has a different amount of the proteins and other receptors, available to bind iron.  The first consideration is the fact that any extra iron can cause stomach upset.  Second, free iron is available to bacteria and sets a dog up to opportunistic infection.  Free iron in the blood is the last concern - it can potentially cause problems over time but usually it's the first two that are noticeable.

It's not an oversight.  It's inherent weakness of the kibble paradigm - really it's going to be true of any commercial food that is not individually balanced.  The only way I can think to get around it is if you had formulas for each weight of dog - even more than the range that's available now, typically.  although, it would definitely help to feed a giant breed formula to a giant breed, since the problem occurs the more food you must feed.  I'm looking for a good one for my LGDs - probably Eagle Pack.  The other way one could get around it is for food to come without the micronutrients, and then you could order a custom mix for your dog.

Balanceit already does something like this, but food's not "plain" so it wouldn't quite work - you can't use a supplement to take iron out. 

fish n dog

are you sure ?

 

Innova Adult lists 569mg/kg

Evo RF 232mg/kg

  Yes; according to the National Research Council's updated 2006 guidelines. As Becca said, it's a problem inherit to any brand of kibble. AAFCO  follows the 1982 NRC guidelines in which nutrients for dogs increased linearly. New research led to the 2006 guidelines in which the requirements for larger dogs were reduced from the previous numbers. If you want to calculate your dog's nutrient requirements it's not hard. Monica Segal's book "Optimal Nutrition" has the NRC 2006 nutritional values for dogs and she tells how to crunch the numbers to find the nutrient values for your dog; the book is $25. Then you can check the information for the brand of kibble you feed to see how the nutrients match up to what your dog needs.
 

Why worry about EVO..  What about Innova Adult ?

DEEP BREATH.....   

Doesn't more iron prevent absorption of phosphorus.. I've seen the posts where some of the concerns were the Grain free having too much phos.

Are we not to feed kibble ? I don't want to hurt my pup...

Is this another scare tactic to get more people feeding home or raw diets ?

It's not a scare tactic.  You can easily run the numbers yourself, then do a risk-to-benefits evaluation to determine your own comfort level.  I have high performance dogs, who were the only ones exposed to a lot of kibble, and I want to see if I can achieve better results going all home prepared again.  We did it once before using Volhard's guidelines.  They did great but the micronutrients weren't customized for each dog and it made me nervous so I went back to supplying their carbs via kibble "just in case."

Besides, I'm not sure what benefit there would be to me, if I persuaded you to go over to a home prepared approach. 

This is a very Wacky thread with no science behind it. IMO  Hemochromatosis seems to be an inherited condition and very rare. And the only other problem would be loose stool.

 If what is being implied her has any merit Purina, SD, Iams, wouldn't be in business. And Innova Adult would kill your dog...

I think you are missing something or your # 's are off a decimal point..

This maybe where the " You can't trust what you read on the Internet " comes into play.

 I am not sure what you mean by science.  I'm assuming the NRC nutritional guidelines are scientific.  The rest is just running numbers.  Call your dog food of choice and get the absolute mineral content per kg, if they will give it to you.  Weigh the food you are feeding and figure out an absolute value for each mineral.  Compare that to the NRC guidelines (2006, not the ones from 1982 that AAFCO uses).  Generally, the more food you feed (ie, the bigger the dog, except for "large breed" formulas), the farther off from the recommended levels you'll be for many nutrients.

It took cat food makers many generations of cats with heart problems to realize that taurine was an essential protein for cats (meaning they cannot synthesize it as dogs and people can).  It took until maybe the last ten years for makers to admit that non-proteinized minerals (chelated) were a waste of money from the pet's point of view (it worked fine for them because the products were balanced on paper).

Dogs in particular have an enormous ability to survive and even thrive on less than optimum nutrition.  They are scavengers after all.  Toxic levels for most micronutrients are many times the recommended guidelines, and even then toxicity may be expressed in only the vaguest symptoms.  The question becomes, where do I draw the line?

I'm the one who started the thread on Mordanna's forum.

edited   Here's the math:  according to Evo's own nutritional analysis, posted on their web site, there are 232  mg/kg of iron in Evo Reduced Fat.

http://www.evopet.com/products/default.asp?panel=na&id=1492

My dog gets between 1.5 - 1.75 cups of food per day, which Natura says weighs 122 g per cup. That means that my dog is getting 44.4 mg per day of iron. That's math. You should try it sometime.

2006 NRC recommendations say that my 80-pound dog should get 14.78 mg per day of iron. edited can see that 44.4 is more than 14.78. Note that AAFCO recommendations and NRC recommendations are DIFFERENT, and that NRC is more current.

What are the ramifications of too much iron? I don't know, but there is no high-end kibble that is much better, or that is not worse in other ways. Please let me know if you find one, but I'll expect you to prove it with math.

edited

gretchensmom

Edit

gretchensmom

2006 NRC recommendations say that my 80-pound dog should get 14.78 mg per day of iron. edit can see that 44.4 is more than 14.78. Note that AAFCO recommendations and NRC recommendations are DIFFERENT, and that NRC is more current.

  IMO, that was a little rude and unnecessary. Fish n dog has every right to question the information and Becca was doing a great job of explaining it without being sarcastic. I didn't think flaming was allowed on ODO; I know it's not allowed in K9 Kitchen or here.