Amount of iron in EVO

    • Gold Top Dog
    gretchensmom

    I'm the one who started the thread on Mordanna's forum.

     

    Edit. Here's the math:  according to Evo's own nutritional analysis, posted on their web site, there are 232  mg/kg of iron in Evo Reduced Fat.

     

    http://www.evopet.com/products/default.asp?panel=na&id=1492

     

    My dog gets between 1.5 - 1.75 cups of food per day, which Natura says weighs 122 g per cup. That means that my dog is getting 44.4 mg per day of iron. That's math. You should try it sometime.

     

    2006 NRC recommendations say that my 80-pound dog should get 14.78 mg per day of iron. Even a math edit can see that 44.4 is more than 14.78. Note that AAFCO recommendations and NRC recommendations are DIFFERENT, and that NRC is more current.

     

    What are the ramifications of too much iron? I don't know, but there is no high-end kibble that is much better, or that is not worse in other ways. Please let me know if you find one, but I'll expect you to prove it with math.

     

    I guess you can tell that your attitude ticks me off. I guess the moderators can ban me if they want. That's okay, I'll go to Mordanna's forum where those wacky folks can do math.

     

    I'm not trying to scare anyone or convert anyone. What nonsense. I care about MY dog. I'm asking questions and doing the math.

    Wowza, are you for real? FYI, no one has to prove anything to you. If you think you can prove one food is better then the next via math you have a lot to learn about physiology and nutrition lol.
    • Gold Top Dog

    Many, many millions of people feed kibble, and if this is true we are harming our dogs..

     

    I just think somehow you have it wrong.. and that what makes your idea of correct figures more right than the Pet Food Manufacturers.

     

    Perhaps you  are reading into raw feeding data and translating that to kibble.   Somehow you got it wrong. IMO or the Pet food guys are wrong.. ????

     

    Don't the Pet Food Co's have to use AAFCO by law ?

     

    Yes I am ignorant on this..  And from reading today different articles and consulting with some people I believe this thread needs some data to back it up.

    If you think of the diet a wolf has he's always eating juicy red meat and organs rich in iron.. And he's a big guy..

    If you guys are correct you may be on to something .. and bravo for you.. We can always learn and become less ignorant. Especially me.

    • Moderators
    • Gold Top Dog

     Moderator speaking

    Lets keep this civil please - no personal attacks please

    • Puppy

    When others use inflammatory language like "scare tactic" "wacky" "no science" and "you can't trust what you read on the internet" than yes, I take offense. I agree that some responses were rude, including my own. If one doesn't think that this thread has any bearing on one's situation, then skip it.

    So, no one has to prove anything to me but I have to prove it to them? Yes, I'm sure I do have a lot to learn about physiology and nutrition (that's what all this math is about) and apparently so does AAFCO.

    There is no law that says the pet food companies have to use AAFCO. It's just that they won't be able to market their product if they don't, because AAFCO has trained consumers to look for the AAFCO statement.

    • Gold Top Dog

     Admin speaking...

    Just to back up Karen's warning... 

    Just because a thread can be skipped by those to whom it doesn't apply does not mean that ANY responses within said thread are permitted to break the rules of common courtesy and civility.  Further posts deemed to do so will be edited.  3 edits means a suspension.  Any queries on this, please contact me. 

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    First I would like say I am sorry. This whole Iron thing is very alarming.. to me.

    If any of this is true it may be a major cause of illness in our dogs.. 

    Someone sent me a link to the Mordanna thread.  Many thanks.

    Perhaps the OP can start fresh and include some of the responses from Mordanna. And this may be a good time for me to start looking at feeding raw. These Pet Food Companies are giving me stress instead of convenience.

    • Gold Top Dog

    OK, I just got an email from Becca who is having trouble posting, asking me to post this:  

    All right, I've got some verifiable information.

    Dogs ingesting between 20 and 60 mg per kg of elemental iron can develop mild clinical signs.  When the amount of elemental iron ingested is greater than 60 mg/kg, serious clinical signs can develop.  In all animals, doses between 100 and 200 mg/kg are potentially lethal.


    Note that that's a heck of a lot of iron compared to the amount in EVO, though the EVO levels are four times that of the NRC guidelines.  For a 40 pound dog, 60 mg per kg would be about 1200 mg total.

    Even mild iron overexposure (at around 400 mg total) can cause damage to the gi lining that has serious long term effects.  Anything that increases the porousness of the mucous lining of the gi increases the risk of infection, and elementals escaping into the bloodstream (including iron).
    aspca.org/site/DocServer/vetm0206_082-090.pdf?docID=9641 -

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    how do we know that the guidelines set by AAFCO or NRC are accurate at all? According to their guidelines, we are oversupplementing our dogs with iron, but where did they get those numbers?  I bet a lot of what they set as "the ideal amount" of a certain nutrient is really just the amount they found dogs can live on. I don't know how we can really know for sure if their guidelines are the most accurate for all the nutrients. 

    If we were poisoning our dogs, then I'm sure we would know it. Signs of iron toxicity in animals includes chronic severe constipation and inability to gain weight. I don't really think those are common problems in dogs today. And like fish n dog said, if dogs aren't supposed to have large amounts of iron, then what about the dogs in the wild who eat red meat all the time, iron-loaded blood and all?

    • Gold Top Dog

    Okay, I seem to be back.  I was grumbling about the dog.com server and it turned out to be me.  I'll be back in a second, I've got more numbers on the red-meat-in-the-wild question.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Okay, first, wolves don't eat cattle, they eat game meats like elk and rabbit.  Lamb is far closer to elk in nutritional makeup than beef, and in fact some wolves would have access to actual wild sheep and goats.  So let's use lamb.  Really this is all justification for the fact that I don't have information on bone-in beef, and I do for lamb.

    if I'm doing my math right, 100 grams of lamb rib has 12.87 mg of iron and provides 340 kcal.  Shank provides 51.70 but only 190 calories.  Let's go with the worst case scenario and pretend that our wolf only ever eats lamb shanks for some strange reason.

    My very hard working 150 pound intact male Maremma sheepdog requires about 2000 kcals per day to stay in shape.  That is probably the top energy requirement for a canid that size - anything less efficient would die of starvation before it could hunt enough food for itself.  For simplicity's sake, we can multiply 51.70 by ten and come up with the amount of iron that would be in an all-lamb-shank diet for our wolf.  We have 517.  This is only about half the level that would be considered deleterious for any mammal that size.

    I've been all over my raw food spreadsheets and it seems like anything that is more concentrated in energy, provides less mineral content. Possibly this is related to the fact that bones provide more minerals but fewer calories.  And obviously a wild animal would eat differnt parts of the prey animal, not just the parts where iron is most concentrated. Remember that kibble manufacturers must provide their mineral content in consistent, concentrated forms.

    With regard to what the NRC numbers represent:  here is the pre-publication press release explaining the 2006 publication:  http://www8.nationalacademies.org/onpinews/newsitem.aspx?RecordID=10668 and a summary of their goals in presenting information on nutrients:

    For example, the report establishes not only minimum daily nutrient requirements, but also recommended allowances that take into account the ability of dogs and cats to absorb nutrients found in typical pet foods. When there is not enough evidence to set a minimum requirement, an "adequate intake" has been established. And a safe upper limit is set when there is sufficient evidence to demonstrate that adverse health effects may occur if that limit is exceeded. The report provides nutrient recommendations based on an animal's physical activity level and stage in life, the two most important factors influencing nutrient needs. It also looks at how nutrients are metabolized in the bodies of dogs and cats, indications of nutrient deficiency, and diseases related to poor nutrition.

    Hope this helps. 

    • Gold Top Dog

     I've been watching this thread with interest since I feed my dogs Evo (lily gets RF evo). I can't remember if it was Evo that made Neiko's poop green or if it was Core. One of the two, anyway. I sent an email to the company about possibly having too much iron in the food which was turning the poop green. I asked my vet about it too but she said not to worry about it, that he was shedding the excess iron. the food company never responded. Now I wish I could remember which food it was. As of right now though, Neiko's poop is no longer green.

     I still believe that evo is a good food, however.
     

    • Gold Top Dog

    okay but how much blood do lamb shanks include? Wolves don't eat just the shanks. On nature shows where they show wolves devouring their prey, their faces are literally covered in blood (chock full of iron). Even peoples' dogs who are only fed RAW don't consume as much blood as wild dogs, unless people are giving an entire lamb to their dog to eat, which doesn't happen.

    • Gold Top Dog

    The reason I an getting concerned is the knowledge of a couple of the posters. . 

    Kibble contains a lot of bone and marrow, and blood. They make these meals from what's left over from processing human food and the real flesh is what stays attached to the bones.. sometime a good quality kibble will use more fleshy pieces of meat from tongue, throat, other parts humans don't want.

    This is getting more interesting..

     

    Would love to hear from a kibble maker..  Hint, Hint..

    • Gold Top Dog

    Jewlieee
    Now I wish I could remember which food it was.

    I think this is your post you're thinking about? (I did a search on "green poop";)http://community.dog.com/forums/p/78046/607741.aspx#607741

    • Gold Top Dog

    jettababy

    okay but how much blood do lamb shanks include? Wolves don't eat just the shanks. On nature shows where they show wolves devouring their prey, their faces are literally covered in blood (chock full of iron). Even peoples' dogs who are only fed RAW don't consume as much blood as wild dogs, unless people are giving an entire lamb to their dog to eat, which doesn't happen.

    I'm not sure where you are heading but I'll try answer your questions as best I can.

    1. When canids kill an animal, it basically bleeds to death.  No quick death for canid prey.  You are welcome to ask me how I know this.  Let's just say I've got more direct experience than I ever wanted with how canids hunt.  Did I ever mention my three livestock guardian dogs?  It's pretty horrible.
    2. Blood is mostly water.  You are thinking that blood has lots of iron but it doesn't really.  Platelets, where most of the iron is bound, are not a huge percentage of blood.

    So put the two facts together and the slighter higher amounts of blood in a killed prey isn't providing substantially higher levels of iron than butchered.  Most iron is bound in the marrow in transferrin, ferritin, or hemosiderin (the latter two in "nurserys" where red blood cells are developing).

    As for the "blood covered face" -  you are welcome to join us for our raw meaty bone meal sometime!  I think it's just a canid thing to spread dinner all over one's face.  Cleanup is half the fun, I guess!

    Oh, and by the way, whole lambs are consumed here quite often, and I sell them to customers regularly.  Whole sheep too.