Help me out please...........

 Hmm- eggs.  Has Kord's "symptoms" totaly gone away with the PP SS&S or just diminished?  The reason I'm asking is I there was something on a Lab board a few weeks ago about eggs causing itching and hot spots.

papillon806

....However, don't forget there is also a Pro Plan Selects Salmon and Brown rice formula which is similar, but more calorie dense/higher protein...

 This is what Caleb has been eating since the beginning of January.  Usually I rotate among the different Selects varietie, but I goofed over the holiday'a and gave the little Stink Pot something with beef in it.  Result- ear infection and tons of chewing and scratching.   Stupid Mom, I should have waited until I could actuall see the ingredient list well enough to read it.  DUH

 Okay, I'm gonna take a guess, since it's different from the line others have taken here, it might be yet another path to explore.

The Purina product does not use plant oils of any kind to supplement OFA levels.  The others did.  I'm convinced, from doing some sniffing around, and from my experiences with Ben (of course), that some dogs simply cannot process plant oils properly.  In plant sourced oil, the omega-3s are in the form of ALA.  In the body, this must be converted to EFA (necessary for healthy skin and coat, heart health, and joint health), and DHA (for nervous system health, eyesight, hormones, and other processes).

We do this easily, and some dogs seem to have no problem with it either.  But Ben, for instance, may as well be taking water as sunflower oil, canola, borage, flax, or any other perfectly good OFA source.

One way you could put it to the test, is by supplementing with fish body oil - enough so that EFA levels are over 1000 (look on the bottle to see what the EFA supplied is per ml or capsule).  If Kord improves radically, you may have your answer.

Ben was violently allergic to fleas too, or so I thought, and then I started him on the fish oil (and went to almost all raw).  For the first time ever, I recently brought a shelter rescue into our house without Ben having a major flea-triggered breakout!  I think the lack of OFAs just makes him hypersensitive.

Good luck!  I sure know how frustrating it is!

Micksmom, Kord has been having raw whole eggs since I brought him home, he improved with the kibble change. I guess I can take those out for a bit, gonna made whine and cry, but well....he will get over it.

Brookcove, I will find a fish oil and try it, currently he is doing just dandy on his current diet. I really hate to upset the apple cart so to speak. I really do suspect the plant oils, they all appear very high in the ingredient list, there is fishor is it garlic? oil in the PPP but it is way down near the end, I suspect the flaxseed because he actually got worse on the NB and Canidea over the Nutro. And fleas seem to be under control, I either have none, and with the amount of rain and damp we have I think this is unlikely, or he is building a better tolerance to it due to improved skin and health.

Heheh this is almost like Clue!

Truley

Micksmom, Kord has been having raw whole eggs since I brought him home, he improved with the kibble change....

Just throwing that idea out there.  :) 

...I guess I can take those out for a bit, gonna made whine and cry, but well....he will get over it...

It might be worth a try, if you can put up with the "complaing"  LOL 

...Ben was violently allergic to fleas too, or so I thought, and then I started him on the fish oil (and went to almost all raw).  For the first time ever, I recently brought a shelter rescue into our house without Ben having a major flea-triggered breakout!  I think the lack of OFAs just makes him hypersensitive.

 That makes sense to me.  When he was younger, Mick was so allergic to fleas that I swear, all he needed to do was see a flea and he'd start scratching and chewing, which resulted in the dreaded hot spots.  I noticed once his skin improved, he didn't react quite as badly.  I found fleas on my grandmother's Toy Poodle after she (the dog) came to live with us, and Mick had no reaction to them. 

   From my experience, having gone through 2 elimination diets with a dog that has multiple food allergies;

 It's not canola oil because if it was, the canola meal in the ProPlan would also cause a reaction. I learned that Jessie's
 allergic to both white and sweet potatoes, which are in Natural Balance.

 Sunflower oil is a possibility since it was in 2 of the foods; it is also a suspect ingredient for Jessie. They put it in so many foods.

 Because lamb meal is in most of the foods, it's a possibility.

  Chicken is a definite possibility too since there is chicken (poultry) fat and/or chicken meal in several of the foods. Dogs with a chicken allergy can also react to chicken fat if they're very sensitive to chicken. It's the protein molecules the dog is reacting to; the more refined the fat or oil, the less likely it will cause a reaction if the dog is sensitive to the protein source.  It's been confirmed through studies that people who are very allergic to peanuts can safely eat many products which have peanut oil because it's well refined. Be aware that the animal digest in ProPlan is made from chicken. If Kord is allergic to chicken, he may eventually become itchy on this food.

Since soybean oil is only in one food, I don't think it's a concern.

I agree that flaxseed may be a culprit since it's in 2 of the foods.

The menhaden fish oil is not likely to be a problem.

  Although it's quite possible that only one food was causing Cord's problems, I know from experience that dogs can have multiple food allergies, and the only way to know for certain what they're allergic to is with an elimination diet.  I'm so happy for Kord; I know he had a rough time. I hope he keeps doing well from now on.
 

First off... It could have been the flea allergy. The pesticides used to remove them or topical treatments. Have you changed the flea products? It may never have been a food... 

But my suspicion is your dog is like a lot of dogs today.. they are sensitive.. or have sensitive systems. Why.. ? If it's a pure breed dog I believe that unwittingly breeders have been producing allergy dogs. We look for hips, eyes, other disease but never check if we are putting more and more dogs into homes that have bowel issues.

At one time our family dogs could eat anything . And stay healthy. Today we see so many formulas being produced for dogs with sensitive stomachs. Their must be a huge market for these products.

I would say your issue is  absorption. Your dog was not producing the the right skin oils to fight off flea bites. Purina may not have the best ingredient panel, but they spend a lot of $$ on testing and the only reason people buy Purina is the end result.

If you read the Great Dane Lady she always says to use a product called " nzymes. " Other such as "Hokamix" are in business because our dogs are not producing enough enzymes on their own. Or the commercial diets we feed lack the enzymes found in raw food.

It could be you dogs immune system and it's reaction to any of the Vitamins being used. Purina may source from a different supplier.

If I had your dog as a pet I would follow a plan like the Great Dane Lady has at her web site. Use a Enzyme Product all the time.

The product you are using now that works contains OAT MEAL. I didn't see that listed in all the others you mentioned.   It works wonders for man and dogs. It helps slow down the food going through the system allowing absorption of minerals and vitamins. .

Micksmom, the egg thing was just fine, I asked for suggestion, I had no issue with it

Jessie and Fish, I really do suspect the oils. I stopped feeding him any kind of chicken after the Canidea to PPP switch, since he was and is improving I have slowly added some now and again, and there were no changes.

Fleas, yes fleas were an issue, and to begin with we thought that was his problem, took him to the vet, explained about his on going problems, they took him back to cut his nails and while examining the boy found 2 fleas living large in the boy danglies. He was on frontline, the vet switched him off frontline, gave enough capstar for 6 weeks (every other day) and the time to take care of the yard and house. We licked the flea issue, but then he started itching again, no fleas, I even at one time thought the flea medicine was not working, so we switched it again, after another 6 weeks he was still itching, so we went to a food issue, transitioned off the Nutro to NB, no change/got worse, then we went to Canidea, got even worse than when he was on the Nutro and NB, had a hot spot episode to end all episodes, so in the last ditch attempt I went with PPP.

Since then he has done nothing but improve, and I know there are fleas out there, this is the north central Kentucky valley, fleas are a big issue. So is the quality of air for that matter.

Thanks all.

 just some thoughts - flaxseed is another no no for Bugsy so that could be part of the problem.  From what you say you haven't had a protein source that has had an instant reaction.  Bugsy makes allergy source finding easy because he gets hives within minutes.  If it is flaxseed you could just give him 1 capsule and see how he does that day.  If its bad give him some benadryl and you will have isolated one source.  It does sound like the veggie oils are an issue.

We used that PPP formula when we discovered B was allergic to eggs until we found some other options because the animal fat (usually chicken) is an allergen for muttley.  A quick look at SG Barking at the Moon shows it might work - I know it is $$ but it is pretty calorie dense and if it is better tolerated he will eat less too.  I do think you might try one of the enzymes just don't overdo it.  Have you tried adding some live yogurt to his food?  I think that has been helping us with Bugsy and getting him to process his food better.

and as for being part cat Bugsy LOVES fish I mean like LOVES it.  For us it is an excellent protein source and I have no issues feeding him fish based foods and plain old fish.

Good luck

K 

Yes to yogurt, strawberry banana is his favorite  and im sorry about the hives, and here I thought scratching was bad. I will go and look at Barking at the moon. And Dane Lady's page.

Thanks.

Truley

im sorry about the hives,

Well it does make it easier to detect one little piece of chicken or turkey or egg and wala lumpy dog.  Not funny but seriously there is no question that those ingredients are to be avoided

Good luck I hate to hear that he is having these problems he's a happy, happy boy! No more itchy, scratchy!

Here is a picture from just a bit ago, his back hind leg upper top had a HUGE chunk chewed out and it is almost completly grown back in:

kpwlee

Well it does make it easier to detect one little piece of chicken or turkey or egg and wala lumpy dog.  Not funny but seriously there is no question that those ingredients are to be avoided

  That would be so scary; poor Bugsy. When I did the elimination diets, it seemed to take about 4 days for Jessie to react. Nothing as dramatic as Bugsy thank goodness; she would lick and chew her feet and get them red.
 

fish n dog

If you read the Great Dane Lady she always says to use a product called " nzymes. " Other such as "Hokamix" are in business because our dogs are not producing enough enzymes on their own. Or the commercial diets we feed lack the enzymes found in raw food.

  I tried the nzymes and they did absolutely nothing; I think they're just wheat sprouts. For absorption issues, acidophilus and products with digestive enzymes like Prozyme will help. Of course acidophilus is in yogurt, but if there's a chance the dog will react to dairy products you can buy acidophilus that's dairy-free.

fish n dog

It could be you dogs immune system and it's reaction to any of the Vitamins being used. Purina may source from a different supplier.

   That's possible. I know of dogs who will react to calcium citrate but not bone meal or calcium carbonate.
 

 my inclination would be to leave him on what you are doing - I went through trying to get a 'better' food and all that with Bugsy and every once in a while I still think may be I should try Orjen fish or a few others but he is doing better than I really thought he could do with our current regime so I smack my own hand and leave well enough alone.

I am so glad that he is less itchy, scratchy and leaving his skin intact!

     I'm going to mention this w/o even looking at the ingredient lists, because IMHO, what we tend to classify as allergies, are usually not true allergic reactions in dogs. Itching, hot spots, etc. can be allergic reactions, but honestly, they are more likely to be resudual effects of a poorly balanced diet or simply a diet that does not offer the correct balance of specific nutrients in the vitamin premix for that particular dog. Over the years, I've fed numerous diets with nearly identical ingredient lists that consisted of exact proteins from the meat/oils in the food. Have tried to figure out what the culprit was only to study the ingredient panels and find no two foods that caused a reaction had similar protein sources, oils, grains.

     Personally, I also use Purina and they seem to have a very specific balance of nutrients not found in many of the "better" foods. It's been very helpful for dogs that previously had coat issues. I do know that Purina does not use chicken fat in any of their formulations, while almost every other food on the market does. That may be part of the problem b/c chicken fat is quite high in Omega 6 & too much of that fatty acid can definitely cause coat problems. Don't know if that's the case, just what I've noted w/ my own dogs ...