Help me out please...........

    • Gold Top Dog

    Help me out please...........

    As you all know, or if you don't, I went through about a good 12 months of trying to figure out what Kord was allergic to in terms of food. I am NOT food savvy. I will tell you what I used, even list the name and the ingredients. I currently feed Purina Pro Plan Sensitive skin and stomach. It has worked magic. Kord has energy, his skin is improving, some of the hair he chewed off has grown back, he has no inflamed area and if I can say so myself, looks fantastic. My vet is also pleased with his overall condition. I should add that I do supplement with a home cooked (thanks Glenda). Also note that Kord does have a flea allergy, I live in the land of yearly fleas so this is a constant issue, but even that is going great right now. So here we go, please help me find a common denominator so I can at least think about what I should avoid with the boy. I have no plans to change his food at this time, it works and I am staying with it, but im still curious.

    Here we go, the mystery needs to be solved. I am going to highlight what I think is the culprit, help me out folks. Am I right or am I missing something?

    Nutro lamb and rice puppy:

    Lamb Meal, Rice Flour, Rice Bran, Ground Rice, Rice Gluten, Poultry Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Dried Plain Beet Pulp, Soybean Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Natural Flavors, Menhaden Fish Oil (source of DHA), Sunflower Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Potassium Chloride, Dried Kelp, Dried Egg Product, Taurine, Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Ferrous Sulfate, Choline Chloride, Biotin, Ascorbic Acid (source of Vitamin C), Manganous Oxide, Garlic Flavor, Niacin, Riboflavin Supplement (source of Vitamin B2), Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin A Supplement, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of Vitamin B6), Thiamine Mononitrate (source of Vitamin B1), Chondroitin Sulfate, Calcium Iodate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of Vitamin K activity), Sodium Selenite, Folic Acid.

    Nutro lamb and rice adult:

    Lamb Meal, Ground Rice, Rice Flour, Rice Bran, Poultry Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Natural Flavors, Soybean Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Sunflower Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Whole Brown Rice, Dried Egg Product, Dried Plain Beet Pulp, Potassium Chloride, L-Lysine, Dried Kelp, Choline Chloride, Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Taurine, Ferrous Sulfate, Ascorbic Acid (source of Vitamin C), Biotin, Copper Proteinate, Niacin, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement (source of Vitamin B2), Vitamin A Supplement, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Chondroitin Sulfate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of Vitamin B6), Thiamine Mononitrate (source of Vitamin B1), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of Vitamin K activity), Calcium Iodate, Folic Acid.

    Natural Balance venison and sweet potato:

    Sweet Potatoes, Venison, Venison Meal, Potato Protein, Canola Oil, Potato Fiber, Flaxseed, Natural Flavor, Choline Chloride, Natural Mixed Tocopherols, Taurine, Vitamin E Supplement, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Potassium Iodide, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), Manganese Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2), Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Folic Acid (Vitamin B).

    Canidea ALS:

    Chicken Meal, Turkey Meal, Brown Rice, White Rice, Lamb Meal, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols), Herring Meal, Flax Seed, Sun Cured Alfalfa Meal, Sunflower Oil, Chicken, Lecithin, Monocalcium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Linoleic Acid, Rosemary Extract, Sage Extract, Dried Enterococcus Faecium, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Aspergillus Oryzae Fermentation Extract, Dried Bacillus Subtilis Fermentation Extract, Inulin (from Chicory root), Saccharomyces Cerevisiae Fermentation Solubles, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Mixed Tocopherols (source of Vitamin E), Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Cobalt Amino Acid Chelate, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (source of Vitamin C), Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Riboflavin (source of B2), Beta Carotene, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Calcium Iodate, Folic Acid, D-Biotin, Sodium Selenite, Papaya, Vitamin B12 Supplement.

    Purina Pro Plan Sensitive Skin and Stomach:

    Salmon, brewers rice, canola meal, oat meal, fish meal (natural source of glucosamine), animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), salmon meal (natural source of glucosamine), pearled barley, brewers dried yeast, animal digest, salt, potassium chloride, Vitamin E supplement, choline chloride, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), manganese sulfate, niacin, calcium carbonate, Vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, copper sulfate, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, garlic oil, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite 

    I have highlighted all the oils, since this is was I suspect is the culprit. Sunflower was in 3, canola in 1, fish oil in 1 and soybean oil in 2, and another slightly suspected ingredient was the flaxseed. There is garlic oil in the purina, but since it is so far down on the list I think it is a non issue. Also note that in Kord's homecooked he gets Jack Mackeral, he also gets it alone, rinsed on occasion. If fact my dog is so in love with fish that I think he is half cat.

    I would like to add, I love a good debate, have no problems with others opinion, I would not have posted it here if I did not want an opinion, but I do NOT want to hear that I am feeding my dog the worse food in the country. I will state this one time, it works for HIM, since that is all that matters to me, keep that opinion to yourself. Thanks in advance.


     

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    ACCCCCKKKK!!!  You are feeding your dog the worst food in the UNIVERSE! 

    LOL.  Now that we've got THAT out of the way.......

    Rice isn't usually an issue, but that is a common thread, EXCEPT, he's doing well on the Purina.  That leaves rice out I think, unless the fragments are easier on him?  Could be the "poultry fat"?  A sensitivity to chicken or turkey or duck or sparrow or whatever is actually IN "poultry" fat??  MAYBE the flax, but that's not a real common allergen.

    Gosh, I flat don't know.  Those would be my guesses.......my mind is going towards the poultry fat, but I'm still on the first pot of coffee.....

    • Gold Top Dog

    I'm by far no expert, either.  I got "lucky", shall we say, with Mick's allergies and was able to figure out what to avoid.  I just happened to be reading a training article by Wendy Vollhard that was talking about allergies, and I recognized Mick's syptoms.  Anyway...one thing I see in common with some of the ingredients you put in bold is that they are preserved with mixed Tocopherols, as is the animal fat in the Nutro and Canidae.  Funny you mentioned the flaxseed- a couple of years ago I mentioned on the Elkhound list I'm on that Mick got more hot spots and ear infections while he was on Natural Balance, Nature's Variety and Canidae (over the course of 3+ years) than he did in the 10 or so years he was on ONE and Pro Plan, someone mentioned maybe he was also allergic to the Flaxseed.  Like you, I wasn't going to mess around to find out.  I knew the Pro Plan didn't cause him any problems, so I just stuck with it.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Glenda, your too funny. As for the poulty fat, I know that we never know what goes in there, but he seems to do alright on raw chicken, turkey, beef, and what not. I am a bad dog owner, I do give my dog scraps, pre cooking and after cooking, and I continued that after we switched and he has shown no signs of allergies.

    Micksmom, funny you should mention that, Kord had a HORRIBLE outbreak of hotspots while on Canidea. hmmmmmm.................

    Ok, I went and underlined the things you both mentioned.

    Isn't this fun?

    • Gold Top Dog

    I think that particular purina formula is actually decent. I have a dog who is allergic to flaxseed, so it's certainly possible. If you REALLY want to find out, you could go buy some flax and the various oils and see what makes your dog react.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I could try that, but not sure I really want to upset the balance, I have flaxseed oil here for my own use. And this variety of PPP is good. I love the fact that it does not have 90 different ingredients. He has firm small stools, still goes twice a day but I still feed him twice a day. His hair is shiney and his skin is getting healthier by the day, and let me say not having the listen to the "thump thump thump" of him itching all the time is golden!

     I only tried this as a last ditch attempt to forestall allergy testing, which is pretty much where we were heading. My parents were Purina people and our dogs when I was a child never had any issue's.

    ETA: Now that I think about it, Kord did better on the nutro than the NB and Canidea, so I wonder if the oils are the culprit and the flax is maybe a secondary allergen. He did have a horrible and I mean cone head, cut the hair, go to the vet and get shots, hot spot outbreak back in August of last year, which is when I had him on Canidea and just a switch over from NB.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Truley

    ...Ok, I went and underlined the things you both mentioned.

    I missed the Natural Mixed Tocopherols in the Natural Balance.  I thought it was odd that I couldn't find it.  Must be the "morning eyes".  :)

    ...Isn't this fun?

    You meant to add "NOT!" after that, right?  LOL  It sure is frustrating, that's for sure.   

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    When I posted ingredients to the food I use, people often take shots at notes put in parentheses, IE., non genetically engineered variety.  I on the other hand welcome the notation in parenthesis because I like to know what I can in regard to certain ingredients.  I welcome the fact that there is concern in those regards and the manufacturer will go the extra mile to obtain the highest quality ingredients and not fool around in regards to mother nature.  You seem to suspect of the oils and noted sunflower oil and others as possible culprits.  It is possible I suppose but I would tend to look in areas where diets are simply to weak from a standpoint of animal source proteins and loaded up with too much grain and leafy green.  Are you aware that dried kelp for instance is seaweed?  Did you think carnivores should be eating seaweed?  There are a lot of areas to explore and in my opinion many potential culprits.  If indeed the oils are the culprit, it makes one wonder about the risks of genetically engineered foods and are we all (people and animals) the guinea pigs in that respect.  Well, again, I welcome the fact my feed maker will note the sunflower oil purchased and used is in fact the non-genetically engineered variety or chemically engineered.  I would hope for the best for my dogs in their diet and I want the most natural ingredients, not the altered or restructured variety.  In other words, they shop for the real deal in ingredients, not cheaper options available.  People don't know in those regards and maybe the criticism of those side notes arises from the fact that they wish they knew but unfortunately have no chance of knowing.  They are stuck with and have to accept whatever the label tells them in those regards.

    Anyway, here are some links I dug up if interested in learning more about what is the deal with genetically engineered foods:

    http://www.consumerhealth.org/articles/display.cfm?ID=19991128220930

    http://www.holisticmed.com/ge/

    http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2003/603_food.html

    CC.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Micks mom.............hehe actually I do think it is fun, I love a good mystery. And to be honest I have looked and looked and LOOKED again at those ingredients and finally gave up trying to figure it out on my own. The fact that by pure chance I got him on the PPP and it worked was like winning the lottery.

    CC...thank you for the articles, I do happen to know that kelp is seaweed, and to answer your question, I do not think plant matter is bad for carnivores, I would love to feed Kord on a prey model diet, I just cannot afford to, so he gets the kibble, and the demons that come with it, but is supplemented with raw. Oh, and I put leafy greens in a  the homecooked I feed him.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Off topic--

    Dawn- how much PPP do you have to feed? I'm thinking about switching foods, and that looks decent! I love canidae, but Kaiser will literally go a whole day without eating unless it's mixed with something.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Hey Megan, he is at 76 lbs and maintaining that, vet said he looked super better since the last visit. He gets 4 cups daily, 2 in the morning and 2 at night. It's not cheap, but for here in town it was the same price as the Canidae, and I do suppliment with a raw mix I call the Glenda Special, eggs every other day or so and on the days I do not use the Glenda Special he gets raw meat, organ meat or rinsed canned Jack Mackeral.

    He liked the Canidea, it just did not like him back.

    ETA: The homecooked is giving in 1/2 cup to 1 cup, and my boy is still GROWING...............sigh..............

    • Gold Top Dog

    Purina One SS has been a life saver for many dogs , I have a GSD that is highly sensitive and I tried to figure out what she was sensitive to and it was very difficult, I noticed that she does great on any of the sensitive stomach formulas, be it Purina One or Hill's, I discovered this by accident, when my wife purchased the Hill's SS instead of the Purina.  I then noticed she could eat many of the HIll's products without any problems whatsover and does wonderfully on them.  I currently feed the Large Breed Adult and she has never looked or felt better.   So anyhow, my theory with her at least is that she does fine on any food that is easily digestible, regardless of the ingredients, most of the sensitive stomach foods are easily digested and most of the Hill's foods are known for high digestibility, and she has no problems with those, she absolutely thrives on them.  I also went down the premium food path with disasterous results, tried all of the most recommended foods on this forum and literally ended up with a near bald GSD, so the bottom line is if it works feed it as you and I both discovered you can not tell how a dog will do on a food by reading a label.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I also can't seem (from the above) to pin-point what the allergy is.  However, don't forget there is also a Pro Plan Selects Salmon and Brown rice formula which is similar, but more calorie dense/higher protein.  This is what I feed Wolfie at the moment and he hasn't got a hot spot yet (he was getting them periodically before on a chicken based food). 

     

    Pro Plan Selects Salmon & Brown Rice:

    Salmon, brown rice, fish meal (natural source of glucosamine), oat meal, canola meal, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), pearled barley, dried egg product, brewers dried yeast, natural flavor, potassium chloride, salt, dried sweet potatoes, blueberry pomace, dried tomatoes, etc

    Guaranteed Analysis:

    Crude Protein (Min) 27.0%
    Crude Fat (Min) 17.0%
    Crude Fiber (Max) 4.0%
    Moisture (Max) 12.0%
    Linoleic Acid (Min) 1.5%
    Calcium (Ca) (Min) 1.0%
    Phosphorus (P) (Min) 0.9%
    Vitamin A (Min) 15,000 IU/kg
    Vitamin E (Min) 460 IU/kg
    Ascorbic Acid* (Min) 70 mg/kg
    Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA)* (Min) 0.25%
    Eicosapentaenoic Acid (EPA)* (Min) 0.25%

    Glucosamine* (Min) 550 ppm

    Glutamine* (Min) 1.0%

    Omega-3 Fatty Acids* (Min) 0.75%
    Omega-6 Fatty Acids* (Min) 1.75%

    CALORIE CONTENT:

    Metabolizable Energy (ME)
    4034 kcal/kg
    1834 kcal/lb.
    430 kcal/cup


    Digestible Energy (DE)
    4351 kcal/kg
    1998 kcal/lb.
    468 kcal/cup

    • Gold Top Dog

    Wow, maybe it does have to do with digestion, I know I am happy with the PPSS, I balk at trying anything else when it does work, but I would also like to rotate if I can, maybe a small bag to try...........hmmmm.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I also forgot to mention that it could be an allergy to a specific vitamin (most likely one that is adding a protein or amino acid) or mix of vitamins.  Just something to consider. 

     (and by vitamin I don't mean the actual vitamin in it's natural state, but the "brand" or other components of the particular vitamin they use)