Greatest nutritional diet per cost...........

I dig this discussion.....keep it coming.

Mudpuppy, others.....what's your true belief with a raw diet?

Found a source of decently priced Primal that I could work into as possibly half the diet.

Feeding the Primal will allow me to get a hold of unusual meat sources that I probably wouldn't otherwise be able to find *affordably* anyways.

I've always been a bit leary of feeding a raw diet...but at the same time, everytime I turn the page on k-9 nutrition, this is where it leads me.

I bought a small bag of the Pheasant nuggets...figured I'll start with that and go from there.

Keep the info coming, I could use a lot of encouragement with the raw diet guru's.

stanton

...., i.e. quality of foods that we eat/purchase for ourselves?

I understand the question has an obvious answer....but I would like to hear from others regarding what they've felt to be their best approach, and what has worked best for them.

Main reason for my asking this, is I don't rightly care to raise this dog on foods that are overly processed as a basis to his diet, and yes, I've thought about one meal being homecooked, the other dry food, but is this going to make the difference in his overall health much later down the road versus a complete fresh diet of human quality meats/veggies.

Guess it depends on if you feel your dog (carnivore) should eat like you (omnivore).  My feeling is if you feed your dog like yourself your heading down the wrong path, and yes it could get costly when the Vet(s) start throwing darts trying to pin down allergies.

cc431....care to further explain your statement, I'm confused.

You mentioned if I plan to feed my dogs such as I feed myself I'm headed down a path of destruction...I'm honestly not sure what you meant.

I plan to feed my dogs what carnivores thrive on, a diet of mostly meat, organs, bones, mild amounts of veggies, fruits, yogurt, eggs, etc.

I have NO intentions of feeding my dogs careless amounts of grains, crappy foods, etc.

We ourselves, within our household eat a fair share of meat/veggies/fruits, course we also eat our share of grains too, but that doesn't mean the dogs will be.

Could you please further elabrate....I'm not sure what you mean.

By the way, she's aged FAR earlier then her years, has horrible hips, hair and skin smells terrible. Beautiful girl, she just looks so miserable.

Your quote above from the other thread is the exact problem you can run into with many diets if your not careful.  When people say I want to feed the way I may choose to feed myself is where I see the red flag.  The veggies and fruits, wholesome oats, and the whole line of marketing of products that goes along with that can be deceptive and in my IMO dangerous.  You did say 'minimal' amounts of that as part of the diet so in your situation I wouldn't see it as a danger.

IMO, the most dangerous diets and the ones to avoid are high fiber and carb.  Many diets claim to me be meat based but in reality they are not.  The biggest offenders are the diets starting off with a meat muscle ingredient (75% moisture-plain old water).  There is no animal source protein value in that moisture content) and therefore carbs and fiber dictate the ration.  These are also the diets marketed as fresh and wholesome, just like you ingredients you would serve at your dinner table.  Then you have the deception in the fiber content.  Innocent numbers like 2.5, 3 and 4% combined with an expansion type fiber (beet pulp, tomato pumace, cellulose flour, etc.) translates into much higher figures hydrated and in the stomach.

The diet they would be eating would be based off individual ingredients mostly, not a prepackaged diet.

I have every intentions of feeding Primal raw food blends along with homecooked meals of separate ingredients, trust me, there will be NO BEET PULP, corn, etc. in their meals.

mudpuppy

what was your lab eating?   I've seen studies showing dogs that eat "normal" protein levels found in kibbles (i.e. between 20 and 26%) were much more likely to suffer ligament injuries than dogs that eat diets with 30% or more protein.

The biggest concern with highly processed foods is that they are really devoid of omega-3 fatty acids, and dogs who eat insufficient amounts of omega-3 fatty acids are prone to all sorts of things, including arthritis.

As much as I would like to blame the food it was life. My dog got tripped by a fully extended Flexi- Leash another dog owner had on their dog and mine was running off leash and then smashed it's knee into a large rock in the woods.. But I have read what you talk about and more so that spaying a bitch too soon can cause this also.

One thing I think I did wrong since learning more about nutrition is that my dog was very active and I took her hiking a lot. Most times I was feeding 25 percent protein foods. I think in hindsight I should have fed more... But at that time only Pro Plan and Eukanuba had Performance diets and the Fat levels always gave her stool issues. And the high Gluten level too.Choices in foods are much better today.

fish n dog...I know how you feel. I had a Malamute/Dal mix that I grew up with from my early teen years thru most of my 20's....had I known better then, she wouldn't have grown up on such foods as Nature's Recipe or Purina ONE, I would've fed her much better.

But, at least she didn't eat the horrible crappy Science Diet which was considered the *bling* of diets at the time.

She too did a LOT of hiking, exploring, fishing, you name it, we did it. She did get extra protein when we were out and about, but not as a general rule.

Wish I had done better by her....I still miss her.

As much as I would like to blame the food it was life. My dog got tripped by a fully extended Flexi- Leash another dog owner had on their dog and mine was running off leash and then smashed it's knee into a large rock in the woods..

you never know. Maybe if the dog had eaten a more appropriate amount of protein the knee would have just swollen up or something after an accident like that, not had the ACL tear.

I think a well-done raw diet is the best diet a dog can possibly eat. I don't feed entirely raw cause I can't afford it.

mudpuppy:

You get exposed to the virus, you get sick

 

No way. That's what your immune system is for. To kill off germs BEFORE you get sick. And the state of your immune system, or how good it is at fighting off germs and keeping you from getting sick, is certainly related to your lifestyle, what you eat, how healthy you are, etc. If you got sick every single time you were exposed to a virus, you'd be sick CONSTANTLY. Viruses are everywhere.

no, your immune system cannot fight off a new virus or bacteria- it takes around ten days for the immune system to "ramp up" antibody production enough to get rid of it. Doesn't matter what you eat, that's how long it takes. Once you've been exposed to a virus, or been vaccinated, it takes a very short period of time to fight off the virus so if you're healthy you won't even notice re-exposure. There aren't that many infectious viruses floating around.

stanton

Mudpuppy, others.....what's your true belief with a raw diet?

  It's great as long as it's properly balanced. Probably the best raw diet is prey model, where you feed an entire animal such as a rabbit. It's very important to do your home work; many raw diets are not balanced. Monica Segal is an animal nutritionist and has a booklet for $6.95 that has balanced raw diets based on NRC's daily allowances for different weight classes of dogs;  http://www.monicasegal.com/catalog/product.php?cPath=25_26&products_id=81

    This may be OT(not sure), but Jessie's coat does best on a food with 3.5% or more 0-6's, with a ratio of about 6 to 1 of 0-6's to 0-3's, and a decent amount of zinc.  I used to feed her about 26% protein but have found she does even better with 30 to 35% (thanks mudpuppy). I maintain that amount by adding canned or cooked meat to the kibble she's on.
 

Not to start any flames here...but I am curious. So many people say that we have to be overly cautious of feeding incorrectly balanced raw or even homemade diets....while I do understand the obvious of the fact that you can't just throw veggies/meat down one meal and yogurt the next...CONSISTENTLY.

BUT, balance over time within a period of several days IS tolerable, the one exception to that is calcium/phosphorus amounts.

So, if we have to be so cautious in this regard, with so many people believing/suggesting that even some premade raw diets are not balanced, why do so many of us, myself included, believe the dry kibble or canned foods are any more balanced then say a premade raw diet food??

Just because kibble/canned food may have added vitamins/minerals does not mean that it provides any more of a balance then a premade raw diet that also has the wording stating *suitable for all life stages*.

Please understand that I'm not referring to some raw and canned diets that literally state on the package *recommended for supplemental feeding only* or not completely balanced, those items are not part of my questioning.

See, I have this problem too though, I've been so brainwashed for years that our k-9's EVERY meal must be balanced through some type of packaging that *tells* me it's balanced; and yet, when I go to cook for myself, such as last night, in which we had homemade chicken noodle soup....we had an apple and jello to go along with it, but we didn't have our veggie with it.

And this morning, well we had oatmeal, but that's far from a completely balanced meal at every sitting.

I highly agree a little bit of everything goes a long way...in which case, the only thing I've never truly tried is a raw diet...I think it's about time I stop *thinking* and researching only, and actually give it a shot.

Truth be told, I've been researching about raw food diets for well over 7-10yrs, just never had the guts to try it. See I once had this beautiful Malamute/Dalmatian mix that was the picture of perfect health til she had a bout of pancreatitis at her 13yrs of age. It was then that I truly started researching overall quality of health in the k-9, if I'd only had the knowledge to feed her better then maybe she wouldn't have experienced that.

I have to stop being *afraid* to branch outside of the dry food or even cooked food wars, and try something different.

Thanks for all the input, it's wonderful, keep it comign.

Good discussion.

My belief is that a raw diet is pretty flexible within certain parameters.  I come from the standpoint of feeding sheep, and there we measure micronutrients in micrograms per kilogram fed.  With dogs we talk about milligrams and grams of nutrients and ranges in the whole digits.

Basically, a dog is adapted to eat a variety of whole foods.  Look at the needs of a dog, versus a constantly varied diet that includes offal, a variety of animal protein sources (including fish), bones, plus other things thrown in like fruits and veggies, herbs, dairy - not a huge part but again, just for variety.  The two match up incredibly well. 

That's the ideal though, and there are many reasons one might need to use caution in considering this path.  One, if a dog's diet will be limited somehow - access to meat sources or allergies.  Two, if a dog falls within certain categories of being what I'd consider to be at risk with regard to nutrition: toy dogs like my Zhi, giant breeds, very young or very old.  Three, unsound dogs or dogs with health problems.

Dogs in those groups are more highly exposed to deficiencies and excesses.  This doesn't mean the owner of such a dog couldn't do a raw diet (with some exceptions), it just means it will take more work and more research, and careful planning and tracking.  As the owner of a high-risk dog on 99% raw, I say, spreadsheets are your friend!  Also, the expertise of such consultants as Monica Segal, already mentioned, or Mordanna.
 

stanton

Just because kibble/canned food may have added vitamins/minerals does not mean that it provides any more of a balance then a premade raw diet that also has the wording stating *suitable for all life stages

   I agree, but there are websites and books with raw diets that aren't modeled after AAFCO or NRC guidelines. I also agree that a raw diet can be balanced over a period of a few weeks, but the key word is balanced. If you're going to do a home cooked or raw diet, you need to know your dogs nutritional needs and the nutrients in the foods you're feeding. It may take a few years for an excess or deficiency of nutrients to effect your dog, but they will. Same thing is true with humans.
 

jessies_mom

stanton

Just because kibble/canned food may have added vitamins/minerals does not mean that it provides any more of a balance then a premade raw diet that also has the wording stating *suitable for all life stages

 

   I agree, but there are websites and books with raw diets that aren't modeled after AAFCO or NRC guidelines. I also agree that a raw diet can be balanced over a period of a few weeks, but the key word is balanced. If you're going to do a home cooked or raw diet, you need to know your dogs nutritional needs and the nutrients in the foods you're feeding. It may take a few years for an excess or deficiency of nutrients to effect your dog, but they will. Same thing is true with humans.
 

 I agree with you completely that yes, there are books and websites that are not modeled after AAFCO, I agree with that totally. Rest assured that for now, I will be using Primal for my raw meat sources, as I can get a good variety; there are other excellent raw food premade diets that I will possibly throw in over time for his diet.

I'm not ready to go it completely on my own, when I do, I will for sure contact a nutritionalist; for now, my Vet has advised a good homemade balanced sheet for us for the homecooked portion for the little dogs, but they are older and no longer growing.

Agree too, this is a great conversation!

stanton

... I have every intentions of feeding Primal raw food blends along with homecooked meals of separate ingredients, trust me, there will be NO BEET PULP, corn, etc. in their meals.

I just took a look at Primal Raw.  If that is what you want to feed I wish you the best and good luck.  I will say, I looked at the ingredients and immediately said to myself, not something I would consider for my dog....no way...but again I hope it works out for you. 

I say that because I see ingredients (more than one) that I would think are not intended for carnivore feeding.  I challenged another user here to find me one commercial diet (raw or otherwise) with only 1 ingredient one could argue not intended for carnivores.  Good luck with that one, but it ain't happening, unless you went with what I am doing.  Look at the omnivore buffet of Primal:

Organic Kale, Organic Carrots, Organic Yams, Organic Broccoli, Organic Apples, Organic Ground Flax Seed, Organic Cranberries, Organic Unfiltered Apple Cider Vinegar, Organic Parsley, Organic Kelp, Organic Alfalfa, Organic Garlic, Organic Grapefruit Seed Extract.

30% 40% or 15% of the ration (they have different formulas) I say NO WAY JOSE.  This is not carnivore feeding.  However, they do have a nice write up under "canine" where they readily admit dogs are carnivores.  Shame the ingredients don't reflect the product as is usually the case with most all modern raw diets.

CC