Treats in Training...

I use treats pretty consistently.  Why?  I look at it as their paycheck for doing their job.  With that being said, I have been in situations where I do not have treats and the dogs still listen.  I prefer to reward them at this point.

- jodi

I'm not sure if I'm expecting too much out of Beau, but sometimes there's things I want him to do on a regular basis, without treats/praise etc. Most of the time, the dogs get love in return for their listening. But food, of any kind, isn't given without having to do something for it. Unless I'm handing out left over steak from the bbq, I guess that's like kids getting candy.
 
It really depends on the dog. Beau will do anything I ask without food. Even new tricks, but when we had Buck and now with Princess, treats are pretty important when it comes to commands/training. So like I said before, it really depends on the dog, but most pups like the idea of a treat after tricks.
 
 
 
 

Did you train the dogs differently.  Or do you think they respond differently because of there personalities?

I don't always use treats anymore with stuff Max knows. Once a day or every other day, I'll grab a few treats and work on stuff with him, he doesn't get one for everything. Throughout the day I do expect him to do stuff without getting any treats for it. If I am taking him somewhere that I know will be particularly distracting, or we may encounter people he will be afraid of, I bring treats. For Millie, if we are out of the house, there are treats for her. She gets distracted so easily that getting her to listen can be work. Since she isn't very solid in multiple environments, the treats are still required, at least in my opinion.

I do expect Roscoe to do the things I know he knows solid without treats, but if I happen to have something yummy in my hand that I feel like sharing, I'll give him a piece, too.  I also try to make him do things while I'm holding something yummy but not for him, so he doesn't get the idea that every time I have a piece of food in my hand he can expect a bit. 
 
But most of the time I don't ask him to do something unless there's going to at least be a life reward at the end - "sit" before going outside, "go to bed" gets him the squashy pillows rather than the thin blanket on the floor, etc.  And I always give a treat if I make him do something "unfun" - like 'relax' so that I can examine his teeth or 'tub' so I can give him a bath or 'go to bed' and then close the crate door. He always gets a big treat when I close the crate door.
 
 

I randomly use treats. They also always work for their food bowl, or any treat that they get, so... I guess I do use treats. Emma will do anythng she knows without a treat. Teenie is a little... dense. She is still needing a lure most of the time.

OK  first off it is never a bribe if the "treat" comes after the behavior.  A bribe is an attempt to get behavior by paying off prior to the desired action.  As to treats, I use them life long.  Dont know as I would continue to work with a payment.  Why should I expect the same from my dogs?   Do I vary the treat and the schedule?  Absolutely I want a variable schedule set up as soon as possible.   Why on earth would you (collective noun as in the humans) quit offering a consequence the established the behavior?  Granted, it ( consequence) can change. In many cases, behavior is now maintained by a conditioned reenforcer (through pairing with the treats).  But I really believe that you need to continue to address behavior by applying consequences that address maintaining the behavior.  If treats are needed under distraction, then maybe what is needed is more training or a better use of reenforcement schedules.  For some dogs that can become the work itself, but not for most John Q Public folk.  My goal with them, adjust the schedule but not remove it entirely.

I use treats.  Of course I'm often trying to get a better performance.  Faster weaves, tighter turns, etc.  I guess I don't really understand the difference between using treats with the basenjis and using a ball or game of tug with the malinois. 
 
Actually I think most of the people doing agility *do* use treats/rewards on a regular basis.  I don't think I've ever seen a dog come off a really nice run and the owner NOT reward the dog in some form (tug, treats, ball, etc) even though, for many dogs, doing agility is rewarding in itself.

The issue appears to be "treats".  My experience has been that folks automatically construe food or money as bribes.  My favorite phrase ("I want my dog to work because he loves me or because I gave him a command, etc.)  What needs to be examined is what antecedent (signal that sets the dog up to provide a specific behavior under the same or similar conditions in the future) and what consequence (what event that immediately following the behavior results in the behavior happening again) result in the behavior being maintained reliably in multiple settings.  Some folks can do that with food, some with praise, some with pets, some with toys, some with access. 

I am curious about why it's bribing to reward the dog with treats, and I am also wondering why treats are a loaded reward (hence the thread), while other rewards seem more neutral.

The last dog I trained was not particularly food motivated, so I was forced to watch her very carefully and figure out what she wanted so I could use it as a reward. So to answer Mic's question, I didn't "bribe" my dog with treats, but I did reward her intermittently (and as randomly as possible) but very frequently--much more often than not.

I got a lot out of controling and dispensing many different kinds of rewards. It made me the Keeper And Provider Of All Things Laika Loves, and that is a position of serious authority. I got a lot of good work done with that system, and it felt right to me. I wouldn't have minded being in my dog's shoes (pads). I am curious about why one would bother witholding rewards. If my boss witheld my paycheck, I would stop working. On the other hand, the fact that I do always get paid what I am owed eventually (I work for two nonprofits that sometimes struggle financially) makes it very easy for me to keep working even when they have to wait a week to pay me.

I am curious about why one would bother witholding rewards.

Since I specifically mentioned this, I'll answer my reasoning.  For me, it has to do with the kind of reward Roscoe comes to expect. Like I said, almost all the time there is a "life reward" like going out or going for a ride after a behavior (every once in a while I need him to sit or wait because it is convenient for me and it isn't going to get him anything in return except a "good boy" or a scratch on the butt, but it's like the non-profit analogy). 

But I was having issues where if I had something in my hand (a chocolate candy bar, for instance) and asked for a behavior, he automatically assumed that his reward was going to be a piece of that candy bar and going outside is lower value (for Roscoe) than a treat.  Pretty much nothing but chasing birds ranks higher than a treat for my food-obsessed hound.  So, after I'd release him to go outside, he'd hang around (and at times leap into the air after my hand) 'cause he thought he should get the treat.  So now I try to make him do things without getting the food in my hand so that "food in Mom's hand" doesn't automatically mean "food for Roscoe."

Does that make sense, or am I totally confused?

I use treats regularly.  I don't think it's bribing at all.  It's a motivator.  I wouldn't go to work every day if I wasn't getting paid for it.  So, I think the same should be true for my dog.  I look at it this way:  I'm asking my dog to do something for me, so she should get rewarded for it.  I go to work and complete tasks that I wouldn't normally do unless I were getting a paycheck for it.  It's the same way for a dog.  And if someone's dog is more motivated by a toy or a ball than with a treat, then that should be their reward.  Whatever works for each individual. 

Jen what you are saying makes perfect sense. I think the pitfall we are talking around is Entitlement. Roscoe is not entitled to whatever is in your hand just because you asked him to sit, and that is important to communicate. I think this is a tricky problem, and I have much more experience handling it with kids than dogs, so here is a human story:

In the NYC public schools, some teachers use a lot of candy and pizza and even on rare occasion money(!) to motivate their students. (Think Michelle Pfeiffer throwing candy bars in Dangerous Minds). This has a *bad* side effect when done thoughtlessly: snarly, cynical kids whose response to any question or request you have for them is "Where's my candy bar?"

This is an awful thing to watch, a difficult situation to negotiate, and I also think it is exactly what people fear when they talk about "bribing" dogs with "treats".

Both kids and dogs do need to understand that they are not *entitled* to a quid pro quo reward after each transaction, but that the goal is to work for as many rewards as possible in a world that reinforces on a variable schedule.

Avoiding and defusing entitlement in kids is difficult, nuanced work because kids can argue and cry and act out and decide to stop learning.

Avoiding and defusing entitlement in dogs is simpler. Hide the treat bag and vary the reward. I am sure Roscoe figured out that he is not entitled to every bit of food in your hand. I like the Life Reward v. Super High Value Reward (for Roscoe, food). It is important I think to understand what kind of rewards you are offering and vary them a lot.

I think that entitlement is such an unpleasant aspect of human behavior (especially for Horatio Alger-worshipping Americans) that we push that idea onto dogs when it's not really appropriate. Sure, misapplied treats create entitlement in dogs. But this problem is so easy to fix and doesn't destroy their character forever or anything.

The why bother witholding rewards question was aimed at a different scenario. I was imagining someone wanting a dog to do a behavior with no reward at all, which seems frankly asinine. Nothing works like that. If I open a door for a stranger I get a Thank You or a smile. Reward. If I pick up someone's wallet on the street I at least get their expression of gratitude that I didn't steal it. Reward. Today the chicken sandwich guy gave me change for a $20 when I gave him a $10, and he thanked me and that was a reward. But I also got the reward of knowing that I didn't have to figure out what to do with those two tainted $5 bills. Two rewards!

If I see the world in terms of the rewards I get for behaviors, why shouldn't my dog?

I had a similar problem to yours, Jen (I think). Lucy started looking straight at my hand whenever she did something I asked her to do. I didn't notice it at first, but by the time I did, it was a pretty ingrained behavior for her. At a trainers suggestion, I stopped C/T for any behavior, and started to only work on attention. I C/T when she looked at ME. As soon as that was in place, I continued to C/T when I asked her to sit, down, etc. but she knew I expected her to pay attention to me instead of staring at the treat in my hand.
 
Now that I am sure she understands certain commands, I also always use variable reinforcement. Seems mean at first, since they are used to always getting a treat when they do something correctly. But now she realizes that she may or may not get something, but she doesn't know for sure so she keeps trying. That's how I am fading out the treats. Variable reinforcement works well on humans as well. []