Treats in Training...

    • Gold Top Dog
    I can't give my dog many treats per day because I have to watch her weight... so I can't really use treats regularly in training... >X.x;<  So I just use praise instead.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I agree with lgoetz.  The key is to use variable reinforcement.  Once my dog understands a command, I immediately start spacing out the treats.  Also, my dogs never know whether there's something in my hand or not.  I hold it in a closed position right from the get go, so they might see it open or not, but they never see a treat bag, or a bait bag (if I use one, it's hidden). 
    The problem with training a hound is that you have to try extra hard to make your treats invisible!
    • Bronze
    They might not see the treat, but they can smell it.  [;)]
    • Gold Top Dog
    They may beable to smell it, but they never know when they are going to get it. [;)][:D]
    • Gold Top Dog
    Depends on the dog.  For Star, because she's a puppy with a short attention span, I use my handy dandy clicker and some diced NB.
     
    For Kahaus, he will readily perform without treats, but when I'm working on fairly new concepts (like improving speed or precision) I employ a random reinforcement schedule with a clicker and/or diced NB for that extra push.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I use treats when teaching a new command or behavior, but once they've gotten that command down I expect them to do it without a treat if I ask.  During training sessions I'll give several commands that they already know and then one they've just learned and then treat them.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Tessa, that's exactly it.  It's the uncertainty that keeps the behavior happening, because every once in a while, my hand *does* open.
    • Puppy
    Hello there :)

    As this seems to be more a survey of opinion than a one-answer-fixes-my-curiosity kind of question, I will add my two cents also.

    You ask " how many people still use treats in training on a regular basis".
    I find this question startling in that it would imply that using treats is a somewhat obsolete technique that meanwhile has been superseded by some other method. Of course, using treats in lieu of the mystical 'the dog works to please me!' is the new, more modern approach.

    You continue asking "Do you think using treats with to great of frequency is a hindrance? At what point are you bribing the dog? "

    Using treats with too great a frequency definitely is a "hindrance" as you put it. Basic behavioral research shows us that once a behavior is learned to an adequate level, the way to keep the dog's performance at a top level is to give only intermittent reward schedule, whereas continuous gaining of rewards lets the behaviour deteriorate. So, while I personally might "think" otherwise (after all, I am human, so I am one of those who never can get enough rewards :>;), the facts show that there is a too much and a too little in rewarding.

    Talking in this context about bribing the dog is somewhat like mixing apples and oranges in my view. A reward is something earned and only visible and available after the performance. A bribe is something offered prior to the behavior. Bribing is never a good idea, no matter in what stage of training. "Luring", different from "bribing" in that it is used to ease the acquisition of new behaviour whereas a bribe is offered for the performance of one already known, can be helpful at times, but as fortunately even the most basic dog book teaches us, even this should be faded as fast as possible once the dog gets the idea.

    You finally ask "Do you find that you have to have a treat to get focus out of your dog in distracting situations?"

    If you have to or if you do offer a treat in a distracting situation you effectively do one of two things: a) you lure the dog or b) you bribe the dog.

    To a): You lure the dog if the treat is offered in a systematic attempt to offer those lures and treats less and less often with the end result that at some point the dog will not see if you even have any treats but will get them sufficiently often as to keep up the wished for behaviour even under heavy distractions. Dogs look out for number one, therefore the dog must believe that the balance of things favors his compliance, that is, that the sum of aversive and rewarding outcomes will be better if he complies. Distraction proofing the dog is much easier using some treats. As all training, early stages require more treats and lures, final stages should require no lures and only intermittent treas.

    To b): You bribe the dog if the treat is offered each time you seek to catch his attention, and if behind this offering of the treat is no systematic fading of the reward into an intermittent schedule. That is what we ought to teach bridging stimuli for, that once properly primed will catch the dogs attention, where then further bridges show the dog that it is on the right path which, when followed consistently, will eventually lead to all the good things he likes.

    Lastly, we have to be clear that the only available alternative to treats (be they appetitive or predatory) are in the positive punishment/negative reinforcement complex - and those certainly have shown themselves to be not only loaded with a huge package of possible problems and repercussions, but also to be less effective, particularly when they are used to the exclusion of positive methods.

    Just my two cents [:)]
    • Gold Top Dog
    Very interesting thread!! I do reward more often than I should and in the past, it was sometimes a bit of a bribe...
     
    Dodger works for every piece of kibble, I measure out his meal for the day and put it in my treat pouch so I can randomly reward throughout the day. 
     
    Dodger will work/listen without the promise of food but because I usually keep my treat pouch on, he probably assumes that the possibility of a reward is always nearby!
     
    I don't have a problem with rewarding Dodger frequently because he is a "difficult" breed to train and I do not want to mess with what works for him!
    • Gold Top Dog
    Maybe I sound like a broken record, but "treats" aren't the only positive reinforcer for dogs.  Toys, getting to chase the squirrel, a game of tug, and praise are all positive reinforcers.  The key is to find what your own dog is willing to work for.  Then, use that reward to teach new behaviors, and space the reward once the dog knows the behavior, so that the reward becomes a variable reinforcer - not necessary every single time the dog performs, but given once in a while to keep the behavior happening.  If you train in this way, the dog does not become reward-dependent, but can get a "paycheck" every once in a while.  Would you work if you stopped getting paid at all?  Even volunteers enjoy a "thank you", LOL. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    Dodger loves to play on his terms but as a reward he's like, "excuse me?" -  that really bothered my last agility instructor because I couldn't get him to tug for any length of time (or show any interest in a toy - unless it belonged to someone else!)...[:)]
     
    • Gold Top Dog
     I vary my rewards when training my guys.  I use food, tennis balls, tugging toys etc.  Usually when I am teaching something totally new I tend to use food.  I clicker train, so when I get the behavior I am looking for I click then feed.  I use food b/c it is easier to reward after the "click" than tossing a ball or tugging.  Once I feel my dog "knows" a behavior I will lengthen the time between treats.  Dasher doesn't get a treat every time he sits for example, but as his "stay" or "leave it" need work, when he does either of those for an extended period of time I will click and feed.    
    • Gold Top Dog
    Isn't it odd how people often TEASE dogs with toys, showing the dog what he's going to get if he obeys, before giving commands? yet that is never seen as "bribery".  
     
    Dogs have to eat. Might as well make them work for a living.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: mudpuppy
    Dogs have to eat. Might as well make them work for a living.

     
    My thoughts exactly!  I hate thinking about when I used to plonk Dodger's food bowl down - he is much happier when he is working for his food! 
    • Gold Top Dog
    When I'm training something new I use treats but once my dog understands what I'm looking for I cut back with the treats, but I always praise, praise, praise.