E Collar Question

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

  How long would any of you show up for work without a paycheck, even if it was only "thanks, nice job"? 

 
All the time, its called volunteer work where there is is loyalty and dedication for the love of something.  Sorry, had to give a plug for volunteer work in dog rescue.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

he dog should not be permitted to ignore the command ( come)

My immediate questions, when a dog ignores a command, are "Does the dog really know his name?" (before saying "come" have I gotten the dog to face me by me calling his name?), "Did the dog hear me?" (distraction level high, not facing me, etc.), and "Does the dog really understand the command?" (have I actually trained what "come" means, and did I "proof" the dog in many locations, and conditions?).  In most cases, when dogs don't come, the answer to one of those questions is "no". 

Using an aversive paired with the "come" word that the dog has just heard means "come" is unpleasant.  You may get him to do it to avoid the aversive, but my guess is that he is not associating getting to you with good things happening for him, which is the basis for the most sound recalls.  I want my dogs to think that arriving at my feet is the best thing since sliced bread.  I have no problem, at first, making myself into a human slot machine that dispensed roast beef, cheese, tug, or a frisbee, for such good behavior on their part.  Dogs that associate getting to you with having wonderful favorite things happen WANT to get to you.  You won't have to be worried about them thinking the environment is a 10 if you are always an 11.

I recently watched a video of a sitmeanssit trainer, and, frankly, I was not at all impressed.  He did not teach the dog any behavior - he taught the dog what NOT to do.  By the end of the session, you saw a dog doing only what was permitted, but not seeming to have any fun doing it.  And, I didn't see the guy reward the dog EVER during the whole vid.  Disgusting, in my book.  How long would any of you show up for work without a paycheck, even if it was only "thanks, nice job"?  Maybe the one in Atlanta is ok, but I would rather seek help elsewhere if it were my dog.  Maybe here:
[linkhttp://k9utraining.com/]http://k9utraining.com/[/link]
[linkhttp://www.campcanineusa.com/]http://www.campcanineusa.com/[/link]
[linkhttp://www.trulydogfriendly.com/blog/?page_id=4]http://www.trulydogfriendly.com/blog/?page_id=4[/link] (scroll down to GA)

Well this is the issue that prombted my question in the first place.  I have read and met about  trainers that think training with an E Collar is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and talk about the rapid progress they can make.  One nationwide school has a $500-600 package that cliams they can teach  basic obedience in three sessions , which to me, doesn't sound realistic and does sound expensive for 3 sessions. This same school recommends no treats at all during the training and does everything with stims..

Then there is the other side of the coin, the warnings of dire consequences every time you use an E Collar due to the "high probability " that you will give your dog some really bad issues because of the E Collar corrections, yet these schools claims taht these collars are used by the millions. ( that probably is an exaggeration)    I find it impossible to find some non biased study that leads you to one conclusion or the other. I like to research ideas before making a decision, and it seems all I can find, on this topic is opinions or anecdotal stories on the subject.  It is a shame that some independant ( of the manufacturers of this equipment, or schools utilizing it ) couldn't be done to illustrate one way or another, that E Collars are a good or bad thing to use on your pet.   My dog for instances, has a pretty good recall except when highly  distracted at distance.  That is the only reason I got the E Collar, to improve that.  I have pretty much already decided that I wouldn't be training it to "go to place" or remote downs and sits or anything else , that is typically taught with the E Collar, and use positive methods instead. 

ORIGINAL: DPU

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

How long would any of you show up for work without a paycheck, even if it was only "thanks, nice job"? 

All the time, its called volunteer work where there is is loyalty and dedication for the love of something.  Sorry, had to give a plug for volunteer work in dog rescue.

I'm happy to plug volunteer work, too, DPU, and you know that I appreciate those who rescue.  But, even volunteers like to be thanked - even if it's only by the nuzzles and laps of the dogs you save... There is still a reward - you saved a life. []

Here's a review of some current literature:
http://www.iaabc.org/articles/Ecollar_IAABCJournal_Spring2007.pdf

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Here's a review of some current literature:
[linkhttp://www.iaabc.org/articles/Ecollar_IAABCJournal_Spring2007.pdf]http://www.iaabc.org/articles/Ecollar_IAABCJournal_Spring2007.pdf[/link]

Great link,

Thanks....

I don't believe you are using your ecollar right. It's not supposed to be used as a "correction", and when used as a correction, you can cause untold psychological damage. It's supposed to be negative reinforcement pure and simple-- you teach the dog that he can "turn off" a mildly aversive sensation by obeying a command he already knows. You can't use it on "nick" mode during the initial training, you need continous stim in the initial training sessions. So you take a dog who has a 100% reliable recall in your initial training circumstances (i.e. not the dog park), and you turn on the stim as you call the dog, and the SECOND the dog turns towards you, you turn off the stim. When the dog gets to you, you reward well. So in a non-distracting location the dog has learned how to turn off the stim, and he's enjoyed coming to you. If he seems upset at all by the stim you have it on too high. Once you've done this several times a day for about two weeks, you start putting a delay between you calling the dog and turning on the stim-- if he responds fast enough, no stim. Once he's "beating the stim" ten times out of ten, NOW you can take the show on the road to more distracting locations. If you find he isn't "beating the stim" or you're having to really turn up the stim level, you've moved too quickly upwards in your choice of distracting locations.  
 
The way you're doing it sounds more like you're training the dog to look at you when nicked. Which you can do, but you can't skip the "look at me" steps in non-distracting locations right next to you and go straight to distance + distractions and expect it to work.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

I don't believe you are using your ecollar right. It's not supposed to be used as a "correction", and when used as a correction, you can cause untold psychological damage. It's supposed to be negative reinforcement pure and simple-- you teach the dog that he can "turn off" a mildly aversive sensation by obeying a command he already knows. You can't use it on "nick" mode during the initial training, you need continous stim in the initial training sessions. So you take a dog who has a 100% reliable recall in your initial training circumstances (i.e. not the dog park), and you turn on the stim as you call the dog, and the SECOND the dog turns towards you, you turn off the stim. When the dog gets to you, you reward well. So in a non-distracting location the dog has learned how to turn off the stim, and he's enjoyed coming to you. If he seems upset at all by the stim you have it on too high. Once you've done this several times a day for about two weeks, you start putting a delay between you calling the dog and turning on the stim-- if he responds fast enough, no stim. Once he's "beating the stim" ten times out of ten, NOW you can take the show on the road to more distracting locations. If you find he isn't "beating the stim" or you're having to really turn up the stim level, you've moved too quickly upwards in your choice of distracting locations.  

The way you're doing it sounds more like you're training the dog to look at you when nicked. Which you can do, but you can't skip the "look at me" steps in non-distracting locations right next to you and go straight to distance + distractions and expect it to work.

Apparently, the method you are quoting is old and out of date, according to the method that  almost all of the very experienced E Collar trainers use today.  The method that I use is the standard taught by a large Nation Wide E Collar school and well as a couple of local ones in my area, and one that a friend of mine is using in the New York Area. The intial stim on the command is a "shoulder tap" to the dog to obey the known command.  A refusal gets repeated should taps on each subsequent command.  Apparently, some dogs act poorly to a continuous stim ( they may freeze or panic) so it is not recommended as a first signal. 

And is it working well, as in your dog is getting rapidly better in coming when called?  doesn't sound like it is. It sounds like they are advocating a bizarre mix of "look at me when stimmed" (except skipping the training of this) and "the stim is a correction for failure to comply". Think about it-- you say you've told to stim the dog every single time you give a command for the first couple of months? so what does the dog learn? he can't do anything to stop the stim, he has no chance to be right, so he learns what, ignore stim until given many more harder stims? 

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

And is it working well, as in your dog is getting rapidly better in coming when called?  doesn't sound like it is. It sounds like they are advocating a bizarre mix of "look at me when stimmed" (except skipping the training of this) and "the stim is a correction for failure to comply". Think about it-- you say you've told to stim the dog every single time you give a command for the first couple of months? so what does the dog learn? he can't do anything to stop the stim, he has no chance to be right, so he learns what, ignore stim until given many more harder stims? 

Actually, it is working exceedling well 98% of the time.  I can easily recall her from 300 feet away with the E collar and a very low level stim.  I found out ( by talking to the instructor today)  that the day I was having a problem and had to turn up  the stim level quite a bit, the distraction level was too high too soon.  I  am supposed to increase the distractions a little bit at a time, and the day I had the problem, there were 2 dogs gathered around someone that was handing out treats standinh next to my dog. It was just too much for her to ignore  Since then I have been able to call her with multiple dogs in the vicinity, and have to work on the treat distraction plus the dogs ,some more.  

I find this really disappointing. When ecollars first came out they were used as a severe correction to stop dogs from ever doing that again, and naturally got a "bad rap" as being cruel and inhumane, which they were. Then people figured out you can use them in a very sophisticated, humane system of negative reinforcement, sort of a "converse of clicker training"-- a way to deliver beautifully timed feedback to dogs working at a distance. And now we've gone full circle back to using them as corrections. Apparently because people don't want to spend the time preparing the dog for use of ecollars as a system of negative reinforcement of previously learned commands. So we can't even recommend people consult with professionals before using an ecollar anymore.
 
You should read some of the hunting dog training books that describe how to use ecollars. The 1993 Tritronics retriever training book is really interesting, uses a lot of language that clicker trainers would certainly recognize and agree with. Entire first half of the book involves training up a pup with pure +R, then you move on to using -R to proof the commands at a distance with the ecollar.
 
If all you want is to have a remote collar that acts as a "tap on the shoulder" why don't you use a et pager?  makes a loud beeping noise or a distruptive vibration at the dog's throat. Spend a couple of weeks training the dog to turn and look at you when paged, do some proofing of the concept, and you're set. Pet pagers are cheaper than ecollars and easier for the owner to figure out.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

I find this really disappointing. When ecollars first came out they were used as a severe correction to stop dogs from ever doing that again, and naturally got a "bad rap" as being cruel and inhumane, which they were. Then people figured out you can use them in a very sophisticated, humane system of negative reinforcement, sort of a "converse of clicker training"-- a way to deliver beautifully timed feedback to dogs working at a distance. And now we've gone full circle back to using them as corrections. Apparently because people don't want to spend the time preparing the dog for use of ecollars as a system of negative reinforcement of previously learned commands. So we can't even recommend people consult with professionals before using an ecollar anymore.

You should read some of the hunting dog training books that describe how to use ecollars. The 1993 Tritronics retriever training book is really interesting, uses a lot of language that clicker trainers would certainly recognize and agree with. Entire first half of the book involves training up a pup with pure +R, then you move on to using -R to proof the commands at a distance with the ecollar.

If all you want is to have a remote collar that acts as a "tap on the shoulder" why don't you use a et pager?  makes a loud beeping noise or a distruptive vibration at the dog's throat. Spend a couple of weeks training the dog to turn and look at you when paged, do some proofing of the concept, and you're set. Pet pagers are cheaper than ecollars and easier for the owner to figure out.

Just an update. There are now 3 dogs at the dog park that are being trained by E collars, mine and 2 others.  The progress these dogs are making, compared to the other dogs in the park undergoing training that I have seen , is amazing. Quite a bit of interest is being created by the behavior of the E dogs,  plus it is obvious that all the dogs being E trained, are very happy and outgoing.

I think in order to have an intelligent discussion of the pros and cons of E collar, it is imperative that the people engaging  in the discussion have experience and some training in using one properly. Once people try it, their attitude towards that type of training, changes dramatically, because they learn that what they thought it was, is probably not correct. 

I think in order to have an intelligent discussion of the pros and cons of clicker training, it is imperative that the people engaging  in the discussion have experience and some training in using clicker training properly. Once people try it, their attitude towards that type of training, changes dramatically, because they learn that what they thought it was, is probably not correct.

Let me know when you have given +R the same try that ron2 has.  Maybe your perspective would change.  You want fast, go to McDonalds, but if you want reliable when the batteries die, or the dog slips a collar, train without the collar first.

it is imperative that the people engaging in the discussion have experience and some training in using one properly. Once people try it, their attitude towards that type of training, changes dramatically, because they learn that what they thought it was, is probably not correct.

 
true enough for any training method. But didn't you originally post because we were uneasy and feeling guilty about using the ecollar?  Just because a training method appears to be working does not mean it is the most effective method nor does it mean it is a humane method. People have managed to train dogs using force and corrections, and yeah, it works.
Ecollars are properly used as negative reinforcement as I described previously. Your so-called "professional" skipped all the most important steps in teaching you how to use your ecollar. And yeah, I have experience using one and have attended a training seminar.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

it is imperative that the people engaging in the discussion have experience and some training in using one properly. Once people try it, their attitude towards that type of training, changes dramatically, because they learn that what they thought it was, is probably not correct.

true enough for any training method. But didn't you originally post because we were uneasy and feeling guilty about using the ecollar?  Just because a training method appears to be working does not mean it is the most effective method nor does it mean it is a humane method. People have managed to train dogs using force and corrections, and yeah, it works.
Ecollars are properly used as negative reinforcement as I described previously. Your so-called "professional" skipped all the most important steps in teaching you how to use your ecollar. And yeah, I have experience using one and have attended a training seminar.

I did have some concern when I posted the topic, because I had read so much negative material on the E Collar.  In carefully  studying the material however, it soon became appparent, that most of it was written by people with zero E Collar experience and training on how to use the modern day collars.  The older collars, were an entirely different breed, and I would not use them.  I was at the dog park the other day, and someone asked me about the collar.  I took it off my dog and told the person to hold it to their wrist, and I would show them how it felt.  I did not change the setting on the collar, so they felt what my dog felt.  I pushed the button a few times and asked them how it felt.  The person couldn't feel anything and I had it set on about 22.  I had to crank it up to around 28, before they could even feel the "tingle". By the way, this person has had three different trainers training his dog for recall reliability, over the course of a year, and at the dogpark, his dog still won't come when he calls it , if there is something more interesting going on. My dog, on the other hand, comes at the first command, even when standing at the gate waiting for another dog to enter ( which is a very high distraction level) .  In addition, I have lowered the stim level, from the level that I intially used. I am anticipating about another few weeks, and that collar will go into storage. This , I am told by another person that has trained their dog with an E Collar, is typical.

By the way, the trainers that I am referring to have trained hundreds and hundreds of dogs on E Collars, and that is the method that they prefer today. 

If your professional e-collar trainer told you they can train your dog in three days with no toys or treats I would run! We can train the handler in three days.

 

I think that’s a misconception many pet owners make about e-collar training courses. They are designed to teach the handler in three days not the dog. Yes most people do go on to have great dogs after. Some of course will not be able to implement it correctly. Witch is obviously the case with this person. Every e-collar trainer out their does things a little differently. If you don’t feel confident with a method it will reflect in the results you get with your dog. That being said I would find a method you are comfortable with. They have tone, pager and vibration collars also.