E Collar Question

Now here is my question, do other people that use E collars sometimes  feel nervous  about using them, or am I just being over concerned? 

We all feel that way when we first start I think,

I used an E Collar on the GSD in my signature to stop his (quicklt becoming) deadly habit of crittering on rabbits.  I had to force myself to get over the nerves of correcting him on the e-collar.

If you're nervous while using the collar, you need to get a handle on those nerves and STOP using the collar until you do, because, as with any tool, you can ruin your dog if you aren't careful.  Your corrections need to be clear and precise, and it is nearly impossible to be clear and precise if you're nervous about doing your dog wrong!

If you aren't comfortable with this tool, try something else or get comfortable real quick, because without confidence and assuredness (confidence, NOT arrogance!), this tool is doomed to fail both you and your dog.  

What kind of e-collar training are you doing?  Can you explain how and when you are correcting the dog....
 
MY bet is that if you feel guilt you are probably doing something wrong....
 
 

ORIGINAL: PACleader

What kind of e-collar training are you doing?  Can you explain how and when you are correcting the dog....

MY bet is that if you feel guilt you are probably doing something wrong....

I am just using it to improve recall under distraction, mainly at the dog park. Following the E Collar instructor, I give the come command, with a short Nick and if the dog turns towards me, I encourage the dog.  If the dog doesn't start towards me within a second or 2, I give the "come" command again along with a couple of quick Nicks.  Pretty standard protocol, I think. I know another person that is undergoing E Collar training with their dog, and that is pretty much what she is doing.  The problem occurs, when the dog doesn't respond and repeated nicks and turning up the stim level, as I was told ( and my friend with her dog, was also told) seems to cause discomfort to the dog. Reading the article that I quoted in the link above, now I am thinking that this could damage the dog in some way, behavior wise. 
Most people I meet, don't seem to care for the E Collar concept, and now I am starting to have seond thoughts about it.  I guess I am also wondering why the E Collar doesn't seem to be accepted by main stream behaviorists, if it is such a good method to train. 

ORIGINAL: PACleader

...MY bet is that if you feel guilt you are probably doing something wrong....

PACleader, the OP said an E-collar trainer was hired to show her the right way.  I would think watching how the owner used it was part of the fee.

All one has to do is see a dog cringe to trigger guilt feelings.  My one and only experience with the E-collar took place a few years ago.  My sister used the E-collar on her GSD pack to keep the dogs within the boundaries of her 3 acre property.  They learned fast and then the E-collar went to storage.  My sister demonostrated the E-collar on my Great Dane name Pepperdine.  As she and the dog neared the boundary the warning from the collar sounded and Pepperdine panicked.  Instead of running back to me, Pepperdine went forward and crossed the boundary and she was scared and in pain.  I ran toward her and that made her run back to me and once again crossing the boundary.  The yelping cry of Pepperdine was too much for me.  So for me, no matter if I used it right and it is a good tool for training, my first impression of the collar will always stay with me.

PACleader, the OP said an E-collar trainer was hired to show her the right way.  I would think watching how the owner used it was part of the fee.

And I train people how to properly use a pinch collar....doesn't mean they end up using it correctly.

I find it interesting that the trainer you hired has you immediately stim the dog on the very first command, rather than giving the dog time to respond.  I would think this is teaching the dog to hold off on coming to you.

I'm assuming that this dog DOES do a decent recall without distraction, correct?

ORIGINAL: Xeph

PACleader, the OP said an E-collar trainer was hired to show her the right way.  I would think watching how the owner used it was part of the fee.

And I train people how to properly use a pinch collar....doesn't mean they end up using it correctly.

I find it interesting that the trainer you hired has you immediately stim the dog on the very first command, rather than giving the dog time to respond.  I would think this is teaching the dog to hold off on coming to you.

I'm assuming that this dog DOES do a decent recall without distraction, correct?

Yes, the instructor was very specific about using the stim and intial command together, She said I should do this for 2 months..and  without distraction, the recall is pretty good.

I wonder what would have happened had you started to train a proper recall, and not taken your dog to the park until you could get her to reliably come when called.  The e-collar, to me, is like putting the cart before the horse. []  I don't choose to use them, but even if someone does want that "added insurance", the first object is to teach a good recall, which is done on lead.  This is a good DVD on teaching the recall, if you're interested in a more positive approach for your everyday training:
roduct_id=440>http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&roduct_id=440
And, this article, on the emergency recall, might help:
http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2002b/magicrecall.htm
I teach my dogs, and my students' dogs, using these, or variants of these methods, with great success - takes longer, but works.

DPU, your post seems to confuse electronic fence collars with electronic remote training collars.  The fence is designed to be prohibitive of crossing the border, hence the stim is incredibly more intense than a training collar used at low levels for a recall - which most people don't use high level stims for recalls.
 

I find it interesting that the trainer you hired has you immediately stim the dog on the very first command, rather than giving the dog time to respond.

Sounds like this is used to get the dog's attention first, before initiating the command.  Much like in general training when you call the dog's name first, before "come".  If it's in conjunction w/"Come", that trainer will soon learn their results would be better with the first method.
 
I would revisit the trainer and have her explain WHY she is suggesting you increase the stim for a failed recall.  What does she see that warrants it?  Confusion versus refusal of a known command is critical to know.  You need to understand the circumstances that warrant the increased stim versus those that don't, to evaluate whether this is an issue with e-collar training, or a need to go back and re-establish a solid foundation before introducing increased distractions.
 
Good luck to you!!

ORIGINAL: miranadobe

DPU, your post seems to confuse electronic fence collars with electronic remote training collars.  The fence is designed to be prohibitive of crossing the border, hence the stim is incredibly more intense than a training collar used at low levels for a recall - which most people don't use high level stims for recalls.

I find it interesting that the trainer you hired has you immediately stim the dog on the very first command, rather than giving the dog time to respond.

Sounds like this is used to get the dog's attention first, before initiating the command.  Much like in general training when you call the dog's name first, before "come".  If it's in conjunction w/"Come", that trainer will soon learn their results would be better with the first method.

I would revisit the trainer and have her explain WHY she is suggesting you increase the stim for a failed recall.  What does she see that warrants it?  Confusion versus refusal of a known command is critical to know.  You need to understand the circumstances that warrant the increased stim versus those that don't, to evaluate whether this is an issue with e-collar training, or a need to go back and re-establish a solid foundation before introducing increased distractions.

Good luck to you!!

The way it was explained to me, was that the dog should not be permitted to ignore the command ( come), since that would set a pattern for the dog.  So if the dog ignores the intial, command, than a couple of quick nicks accompany the 2nd. If the dog still ignores, than a slight increase in nick level with a few  quick nicks is then given on the 3rd time and so forth, until the dog complies.

ORIGINAL: miranadobe

DPU, your post seems to confuse electronic fence collars with electronic remote training collars....
 

 
Maybe I am confused or the OP is changing her questions.  I thought the OP ask if anyone feels nervous using the E-collar, not what is the proper use of the collar.  The OP also referenced a link that stated the shocked collar is actually hurting rater than helping.  The link also referenced shock collars for containments.  I responded based on my experience.

I was nervous about the E Collar at first too, but after I used it on myself several times I got over it. The lower levels are not that bad, and meant only to grab the dog's attention, not cause pain.

It has been a life saver. Akiko was prey driven and environmentally focused. When we were outside it was like I did not exist. Using positive reinforcement did not work in this case. She did not want food, praise or toys. I felt very bad that she could never be off leash, her recall was non existent.

Now she is a great off leash companion, and my husband and I can take her on hikes without worry. She always comes when called. At this point she still wears the collar, but we rarely ever use it. It did not take long to train her with it, and I think her quality of life is much better now. I only had to use the higher level once, when she took off after a rabbit in the woods, she yelped, and I felt really bad... but it saved her from getting lost. 99% of the time there is no reason to use anything but the lowest levels IMO.

I'm with DPU on this.  I've also had a bad experience with shock collars.  Back when I allowed my dad to try training my beagle, he put the shock collar on her.  She was out digging, he told her to leave it or to come, she didn't so he made it vibrate (we have one that vibrates and shocks).  Carley yelped and ran.  She was scared of EVERYTHING the rest of the day.  She was so skittish that day (and she's very rarely scared normally), and I just felt awful for allowing him to do that to her.  Luckily, it hasn't had any long-term effect on her, and all training done on her now is done by me with positive techniques.  I will never, ever use a shock collar again because of this.
 
But you know your dog best and how they respond to things, plus you have a trainer to consult with.  Hopefully if there are any bad effects from this, your trainer can help you fix them.

bobsk8 - What has your trainer said about your concerns?  Do you feel as though her answers didn't make sense, or made you feel uncomfortable?  She knows you and your dog.  People online (either pro or anti e-collar) don't know your dog, so I'd sooner see you get feedback from someone who can watch you and your dog and give you legitimate feedback.
 
You are fortunate enough to be in Atlanta, where a SitMeansSit trainer is
[linkhttp://www.sitmeanssit.com/smsgaat/]http://www.sitmeanssit.com/smsgaat/[/link]
I would contact them and ask to observe classes, ask your questions about long-term use, as well as the responses from your own dog, etc.  It looks as though they have a weekly class in Alpharetta every Saturday at 11am.  I'd talk to the participants and see if they had the same experiences and concerns - and what kept them coming back.
 
I trust my dog trainer and I've watched her successfully train hundreds of dogs with e-collars as part of the "toolbox" - and they're ALL incredibly happy and well-adjusted companions.  Every dog is different, though, and if you're concerned about your dog, you have to do what is right and what you are comfortable living with - both what you may gain and/or lose by using the e-collar.

he dog should not be permitted to ignore the command ( come)

My immediate questions, when a dog ignores a command, are "Does the dog really know his name?" (before saying "come" have I gotten the dog to face me by me calling his name?), "Did the dog hear me?" (distraction level high, not facing me, etc.), and "Does the dog really understand the command?" (have I actually trained what "come" means, and did I "proof" the dog in many locations, and conditions?).  In most cases, when dogs don't come, the answer to one of those questions is "no". 

Using an aversive paired with the "come" word that the dog has just heard means "come" is unpleasant.  You may get him to do it to avoid the aversive, but my guess is that he is not associating getting to you with good things happening for him, which is the basis for the most sound recalls.  I want my dogs to think that arriving at my feet is the best thing since sliced bread.  I have no problem, at first, making myself into a human slot machine that dispensed roast beef, cheese, tug, or a frisbee, for such good behavior on their part.  Dogs that associate getting to you with having wonderful favorite things happen WANT to get to you.  You won't have to be worried about them thinking the environment is a 10 if you are always an 11.

I recently watched a video of a sitmeanssit trainer, and, frankly, I was not at all impressed.  He did not teach the dog any behavior - he taught the dog what NOT to do.  By the end of the session, you saw a dog doing only what was permitted, but not seeming to have any fun doing it.  And, I didn't see the guy reward the dog EVER during the whole vid.  Disgusting, in my book.  How long would any of you show up for work without a paycheck, even if it was only "thanks, nice job"?  Maybe the one in Atlanta is ok, but I would rather seek help elsewhere if it were my dog.  Maybe here:
http://k9utraining.com/
http://www.campcanineusa.com/
http://www.trulydogfriendly.com/blog/?page_id=4 (scroll down to GA)