getting dog to listen without treats

It's just so easy to lose her interest - there always seems to be something more important than listening to me!

 
many people accidently teach their dogs to never pay attention to them unless they do something to "cue" the dog that now is time to pay attention-- often going and getting the treat is the cue they've accidently taught to the dog, or snapping on the leash, or putting on the bait-pouch.  The dog has learned that "nothing good comes from owner unless THIS happens first". It's ok, the dog has been trained, just didn't quite learn what you thought you were teaching. Easy to fix.
 
Try to be unpredictable and exciting. For example, suddenly take off running and hide. If the dog chases you, reward reward reward. If your dog spontaneously offers attention-- especially in dstracting conditions-  looks at you, follows you around, runs up to you-- reward. That's good.
Have treats hidden on your person and around your house and hold short training sessions at random moments.

Another thing to try is keeping treats in your pockets.  The first couple of days, show her the treat as you put it in your pocket and train.  Later, don't even let her know that you have it, just ask for a simple behavior, like sit, and reward when she sits.  You can then start fading the treat more- every 2 behaviors, 4, 5, 7, 9, etc. whatever number at random.  If there's a behavior that must be kept extra sharp- like come- after fading the treats bring them back out every so often- more often than with other behaviors.  I've found that keeping treats in your pockets really helps with fading, since the dog doesn't even know if you have treats on you or not.

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It is important to find many different ways to reward your dog. Food is fine, but if you can develop your dog into a dog who will work for tug, fetch, chase games, praise, butt-scratches, etc. the training goes so much easier and is so much more fun for dogs (and humans) than just eating treat after treat. However, keep in mind that your dog is who decides what is rewarding. If your dog truly hates tennis balls, and you work hard to develop the ball into a secondary reinforcer, and the dog still hates tennis balls, your dog will never find a tennis ball rewarding.
 

From my own personal experience the best thing that you can do is stop treat training all together.  I took my dogs through a well respected treat training class and at the end of the class my dogs got there certificate stating that they were certified.  And I like you then realized that the only way that my dogs were going to listen to my comands in the real world was is I begged and pleded with them while holding food over there heads.  This just was not satisfactory to me. 

I started searching for alternative methods and I found one.  It is more harsh and it requires the use of a choke collar but what it has taught my dogs is to listen to every ommand that I say the first time that I say it.  No questions asked.

[linkhttp://www.richlingk9.com/book/buy-now.shtml]Go here to find out more about this training method.[/link]

ORIGINAL: bmaggard

From my own personal experience the best thing that you can do is stop treat training all together.  I took my dogs through a well respected treat training class and at the end of the class my dogs got there certificate stating that they were certified.  And I like you then realized that the only way that my dogs were going to listen to my comands in the real world was is I begged and pleded with them while holding food over there heads.  This just was not satisfactory to me. 

I started searching for alternative methods and I found one.  It is more harsh and it requires the use of a choke collar but what it has taught my dogs is to listen to every ommand that I say the first time that I say it.  No questions asked.

[linkhttp://www.richlingk9.com/book/buy-now.shtml]Go here to find out more about this training method.[/link]

 
[8|]  waiting for the fireworks.  YIKES!

1st post.  It's a spammer.

Most of us prefer to use gentle methods to train our dogs.  I have six german shepherds, five of whom have earned their canine good citizens and I've never worried about getting instant obedience while I'm training.  I get it NOW, and it might have taken a little longer, but that's ok.  The end result is what really matters.  One of my boys does therapy work at a senior citizens home as well.

For the record, we aren't gonna HAVE any fireworks   OK, guys?

ORIGINAL: JM

1st post.  It's a spammer.

Yes this is my first post. But I am not a spammer. I really do train by these methods and I believe in them 100% I have seen them work in real world situations.  Example I have taken my 2 Golder Retriver's to a store with me and put them in a down stay while I went inside.  On my way out I say some people trying to call my dog into there car.  My dogs would not move. They had no interest in the other people. I cam out side called them to a heel and went on my way.  This is why I believe in this training and is why I would recommend the book that I did.  I will recommend it again and again because I feel it can help alot of people that feel that treat training does not work.

Just so I can be called a spammer again here is the link again to a [linkhttp://www.richlingk9.com/book/buy-now.shtml]great humane dog training book.[/link]

If you would like to find out more about the trainer and auther of the book visit his website at [linkhttp://www.richlingk9.com]www.richlingk9.com[/link]

ORIGINAL: bmaggard

ORIGINAL: JM

1st post.  It's a spammer.

Yes this is my first post. But I am not a spammer. I really do train by these methods and I believe in them 100% I have seen them work in real world situations.  Example I have taken my 2 Golder Retriver's to a store with me and put them in a down stay while I went inside.  On my way out I say some people trying to call my dog into there car.  My dogs would not move. They had no interest in the other people. I cam out side called them to a heel and went on my way.  This is why I believe in this training and is why I would recommend the book that I did.  I will recommend it again and again because I feel it can help alot of people that feel that treat training does not work.

Just so I can be called a spammer again here is the link again to a [linkhttp://www.richlingk9.com/book/buy-now.shtml]great humane dog training book.[/link]

If you would like to find out more about the trainer and auther of the book visit his website at [linkhttp://www.richlingk9.com]www.richlingk9.com[/link]

Is this your site?  If so, we are not allowed to post for personal gain.

I find the site to be appalling in its lack of understanding of positive training.  People who use treats in their training programs are not "treat trainers", they may be lure/reward trainers, or they may be clicker trainers. 
BTW, many of us "treat trainers" have dogs that behave, and that obey the "first time they are asked" too, and no, they don't need a treat each time to perform.  No fireworks, just fact.

No this is not my site is is the site of my dog trainer.  I am a member of his class. His method do understand the positive training methods it is positive in terms of prasing the dog for dogin the command. Telling the dog good boy, petting them scratching there head. things like that.  The training does not use any for of treat or clicker training.  This is type of training is the same type of training that is used in training military and police dogs.

Not trying to start anything but I used to train my dogs in the treat training methods and it just would not work in the real world.  It worked great if the level of distractions was minimal.  The reason that I went to this type of training method was because I was out working with one of my dog in my  yard and during a sit stay he broke the command and ran into the street as several cars were going by.  Luckly he was not hit,   but because of that act and several others I was determined to find other methods of training.  That is when I found richlingk9.  The methods that are taugh are harsh but they work. I have only been training under him for 6 months and both of my dog are off all equipment no matter what the situation is. I could be heeling them trough a crowd of people and they will be by my side.  I could be hiking throuhg the woods with bunnies running accross our path and they will not break.  That to me is great dog training.  I am at the stage in training that the only correct I have to give my dog is to tell them "NO" 

I am sorry if I ruffle feathers in this forum but treat training and clicker training is not the method of training that I believe in.  I will continue to talk about the methods that I have been taught.

My dogs rarely get treats.  I use homemade treats that I keep frozen and I often forget to take them out of the freezer....ok, usually I forget.  I take my dogs off lead into the woods and fields surrounding my house.  There are frequently deer, bunnies, tons of turkeys and pheasants.  When I call them off running "prey", the recall is instantaneous. Is that enough distraction to prove my way works?   By the time we get home, often hours later, IF I remember, I'll treat them, but I'm pretty sure by then that they've forgotten why they are getting a treat, just that Mom is the dispenser of all things good.
 
I don't need to inflict pain on my dogs to prove that I am in charge.  They know it already.

I find that to train successfully, you need to use what motivates the dog.  In most cases that's food.  Try having a dog being called between 2 people.  One person is going to issue treats when the dog runs up to them and the other issues petting and praise only.  Who do you think the dog goes to more often?  Who do you think he responds to fastest?  If they were to both call simultaneously, who do you think he will choose to go to?  The food-giver, most likely, because that is the course of action that best facilitates his survival.  Greedy, food motivated dogs in days of yore survived to breed.  It's that simple.  It's not that they or their handlers are deficient in some way, it's just the way Nature and evolution has programmed them.  "Positive trainers" usually understand that.
 
What's more, no you don't have to go round with a pocketful of treats to get your dog to obey you.  It's a common myth and a common mistake that lots of people make when starting out with positive methods.  I know I did.  See mudpuppy's excellent analogy re Coke machine vs slot machine.  To say that in order for youd dogs to obey you had to "beg and plead while holding food over their heads" betrays that you made some fundamental mistakes and perhaps didn't grasp the method fully, or the class instructor didn't explain it properly.  It is not a reason for the OP to abandon this training method and start using a choke collar; (unless they really wanted to - ?????)  the problem described is common and easily fixed.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

I find that to train successfully, you need to use what motivates the dog.  In most cases that's food.  Try having a dog being called between 2 people.  One person is going to issue treats when the dog runs up to them and the other issues petting and praise only.  Who do you think the dog goes to more often?  Who do you think he responds to fastest?  If they were to both call simultaneously, who do you think he will choose to go to?  The food-giver, most likely, because that is the course of action that best facilitates his survival.  Greedy, food motivated dogs in days of yore survived to breed.  It's that simple.  It's not that they or their handlers are deficient in some way, it's just the way Nature and evolution has programmed them.  "Positive trainers" usually understand that.

What's more, no you don't have to go round with a pocketful of treats to get your dog to obey you.  It's a common myth and a common mistake that lots of people make when starting out with positive methods.  I know I did.  See mudpuppy's excellent analogy re Coke machine vs slot machine.  To say that in order for youd dogs to obey you had to "beg and plead while holding food over their heads" betrays that you made some fundamental mistakes and perhaps didn't grasp the method fully, or the class instructor didn't explain it properly.  It is not a reason for the OP to abandon this training method and start using a choke collar; (unless they really wanted to - ?????)  the problem described is common and easily fixed.

Chuffy in your example above I have to assume that one of the 2 people is the dogs handler and the one with the food is not.  With my dogs in that situation they will always recal to me.  This is actualy an excersise that we practice. We practice this so the dog is focused on the handler and not everyone else.

The method of training that I do is very positive when a command is done properly.  I am glad to hear that treat training methods have worked and have been tested under real world stress. 

I would like to ask glenmar how long have you been training your dogs to be able to recall them off of chasing animals like you metioned in your post.  I am wondering because I have never seen this behavior outside of the dog club that I am part of.