getting dog to listen without treats

I'm very random with treats so mine never know when the *might* get one.  Maybe start decreasing the size of the treats, then alternating treat/no treat/treat/no treat for a bit then maybe TWO times no treat to one treat.....spread it out and eventually you should be able to fade them out altogether and only give treats when you darned well good and please.

I agree with glenmar, but I've heard that if you go very routinely (i.e., treat/no treat/treat) that the dog can figure that out and will only peform when he knows the treat is coming.  I think you need to randomize it more than that -- maybe do 5 with a treat, then one no treat, then three more with a treat, and so on, so your dog really won't be able to figure out when he might get the treat.
 
Any other suggestions would be great, because I'm still working on Schotzi!  He also has trouble performing in different environments -- he will sit great for me here at home, but when we get out (like when I take him to work), he won't sit for a darn.  Any suggestions there?

Variable reinforcement schedule tips:

1. Anything your dog wants can be a reward, and even a seriously food motivated dog is sometimes thirsty, wanting to play tug, wanting a bellyrub, etc. The trick is to figure out what your dog wants (access to a person, dog or fireplug; a drink of water at the dogrun; entry to the dogrun; supper) and make the dog work for *that desired thing*

This approach kills two birds with one stone. First, it sets you up as The Omniscient Deliverer of All Desired Things, which is a powerful position to be in. Second, it makes the dog stop looking toward your hand.

2. Don't get into a pattern with rewards. Instead, use specific criteria. Right now, I am only rewarding really fast recalls, as in "Holy cow, that dog dropped what he was doing and came running!" When you find yourself rewarding all the time, change the criteria.

3. Ask your dog to do something with a treat in your hand, and then don't give the treat. Do it often. Right now, the treat in your hand is a reliable predictor of the dog's future treat. You should not be that predictable. If you are more like a slot machine and less like a vending machine, you will feel less like you are bribing your dog, because your dog will become accustomed to not getting what he wants each individual time.

Good luck!

He also has trouble performing in different environments -- he will sit great for me here at home, but when we get out (like when I take him to work), he won't sit for a darn.  Any suggestions there?

Dogs don't generalize well. Take it slow, and set the dog up to succeed. If your dog sits in your house, great! Move out to the backyard or front hallway. When your dog sits there, try another place. Add places and distractions gradually, and trust that your dog is actually learning something new each time. Over time, your dog will generalize.

I have been in a mindset that withholding rewards because the dog doesn't offer the right behavior causes distress in the dog.  Now in this thread it is said to withhold the treat when the dog offers the right behavior.  *Headache*  For good behavior just offer the dog affection by a pat on a head, a stroke, a sweet sounding "good dog you".  For bad behavior, correct or ignore.  Why play mind games with the dog. 

ORIGINAL: fisher6000

Variable reinforcement schedule tips:

Very helpful for me, too. Thanks! []

I never have a problem with giving the dog lots of treats in the beginning stage of learning a new behavior.  Once he is doing the behavior consistently, I start spacing the treats out, have them appear from different places, and substitute other rewards (pat, squealy voice, toy, etc.)
http://www.clickermagic.com/clicker_primer/clicker_p18.html

Now in this thread it is said to withhold the treat when the dog offers the right behavior.

 
yup. Very important. If you reinforce a behavior every single time, the behavior becomes a lot less robust than a variably reinforced behavior.
It's the difference between a coke machine and a slot machine. Coke machine gives you a coke every time you offer it a behavior (put money in). It's pretty boring. You'd never stand there feeding it quarters for hours. And if it didn't give you a coke on demand you'd kick it and walk away and find something better to do. Which a lot of dogs do-- owner is boring, so they run off and look for squirrels or other dogs.
 
Slot machine rarely rewards you when you offer it a behavior. It gives a wide variety of rewards, from jackpot to a single quarter back. People sit there for hours, fascinated, feeding the things for very little reinforcement.
 
you need to be a slot machine, not a coke machine, for your dog. Sometimes you give food; sometimes praise; sometimes access to the outside; sometimes a fun game; and often, you give nothing.
 
I like to always have treats and toys on my person, and of course I always have praise available. Doesn't mean the dog is going to get them. But he might.

Excellent explantion Mudpuppy!

Repeat, why play mind games that causes the dog stress.
 
Yeah, yeah.  Deprivation increases learning and Satiation decreases learning.  Just from the words once implies negative while the other is positive.  Who is so sure to know how much or how little effects the dog's mind.  And for that matter when they switch.

ORIGINAL: DPU

Repeat, why play mind games that causes the dog stress.

Can you explain why you worry that this is mind games and deprivation? I don't understand why you think that.

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl
Can you explain why you worry that this is mind games and deprivation? I don't understand why you think that.

I first need MRV or someone to define the scientific definition of Deprivation and Satisation in Learning Theory.  It is as I stated in my post.  Then I can explain "why" through my recent observation of my pack and also interject the emotional element from my observations.  This is all I can contribute.

Thanks for the replies - Ok, so it looks like I'm relying too much on the treats and I have to vary it up a bit.  It's just so hard to get her motivated to obey a command since she seems to always have her own agenda, and her own agenda is always more important than what i have to offer unless it's food.  I think she might obey for toys and access to outside as well, and I am going to try this.  And it seems that sometimes I have to offer nothing.    It's just so easy to lose her interest - there always seems to be something more important than listening to me!

Are you training some place quiet with no distractions? Are you being shy or outrageously interesting? Do you practice NILIF (does your dog know that "all good things come from you")?

When I'm losing my dog Ixa's attention, it's either because she needs more exercise, or I'm being too predictable and she's bored. I can really ham it up and have while training, I keep her on her toes, interested. When she performs, I don't just give her treats, I give her a party - love her up a bunch! I smile a lot when we train.

I am also careful to always give verbal or physical praise with treats, so she performs equally well for "good stay" as she does for a treat, since they are so aligned through repetition. I also mix up treats in my treat bag, so she never knows what she's getting.

Before dinner I change up Ixa's behavior offerings. For a while it was just a sit before I'd release her to eat, then a stay, then a sit with shake left and right, then a down with a speak, then I start letting her improvise and she came up with a speak and a spin then a down-stay. for a while she did crawl, next maybe back up. Cute stuff! Always change up your training routine. She should never know what to expect.

Instead of thinking of it as "getting your dog to listen" you could think about "how can you attract your dog". You *always* have stuff to offer your dog: YOU! [] Do it happily and she'll respond.