Did You Dump the Dominance Theory?

I am going to have to disagree, sorry, but my second German Shepherd in line is 7 years old, he is the pack ruler, second to me.
When he is in his bed, and the youngest GSD is coming around, his teeth are showing, ears back, and what he is saying is, back off..............I am certain a 111 pound, 7 year old GSD is not scared of a 4.5 month old pup.
The pup puts his ears back and lays down, trying to lick his mouth........

Just my observation...........don't be so focused on the ears..........watch body language.......

Hope this isn't too OT... it is dominance-theory related but perhaps a thread on body language is called for.... Anyway, everything I've read states that the ears-back position in conjunction with other signals of aggression like bared teeth, growling/snapping, etc. indicates the dog is fear-aggressive, defensive-aggressive, or is an insecure and submissive dog attempting to put on an aggressive display - the descriptions vary along those lines, sometimes the inned ears are just lumped in with "aggression," but nowhere is it said that it's a dominant posture. A dog with conflicted feelings or who is unsure of himself could put on a mixed display of aggressive and submissive signals, but the ears pinned back is as far as I know not a sign of confidence or dominance... if you have evidence to the contrary I'm interested. Here are some pretty good pictorial guides if anyone's interested.
 
[linkhttp://www.aspca.org/site/DocServer/CanineBody_Language.pdf?docID=6521]http://www.aspca.org/site/DocServer/CanineBody_Language.pdf?docID=6521[/link]
[linkhttp://www.pawsacrossamerica.com/interpret.html]http://www.pawsacrossamerica.com/interpret.html[/link]
[linkhttp://www.takingthelead.co.uk/3/bodylangquiz.htm]http://www.takingthelead.co.uk/3/bodylangquiz.htm[/link]
 

sometimes the pinned ears are just lumped in with "aggression," but nowhere is it said that it's a dominant posture

"Dominant Posture".......in this situation, the dog is in his bed, laying down......the younger dogs comes around...........still, in my experience it means" Back The Heck Off".
Like I said, watch body language..........more important than what goes on with the ears...........
Prick eared dogs have their ears back for many reasons.........even when excited.........

Btw., the 2 mentioned are in my avatar................

Went to the websites, sorry, there are just not enough variables, it's just pretty basic.

I think, in this case, I would translate ears back as, "I'm giving you some room to back off here - I'm not committed to putting any more pressure on you at the moment." I love to watch Zhi with a bone - she's ten pounds - no way is there going to be any thing other than social pressure enforced in her case.

Another dog will come over and signal interest in her bone. She'll partly raise herself, fix the dog with a look. The look says, "I recognise you. Here's a quarter, call a dog that cares about your problems." She may growl.

If the dog persists, she'll get slightly taller, the teeth will show, but she'll also open some space between her and the other dog and flatten her ears. Now she's saying, "You are risking my displeasure. Feel free to take advantage of the space I'm giving you here to advance and bring down my wrath, or back off."

If the other dogs persists (this is very rare), the ears will come up one at a time, the teeth will get more visible, then suddenly the ears will face full forward, the corners of the mouth will relax preparatory to a snap, and sometimes she'll offer one last warning vocalization before doing her unique whirling dervish attack. Generally this will startle the dog, and as soon as she gets that result, she'll return to her previous stance.

She really can't throw her weight around, so the worst message she can really convey is, "You are OFF my Christmas card list!" But she has worked hard to ensure that being "off her list" is a severe aversive in their world. Everyone wants attention from Zhi because she gives everyone exactly what they want. It's a fascinating process and one that has alerted me to similiar interactions in other "packs."

Brooke! [] That's cool.

And pretty spot on, IMO. I've seen plenty of aggressive displays from dominant dogs that involve ears pinned back. I interpret it to mean something along the lines of "I'd rather not have to take this further; it's up to you." The pinned back ears, IMHO, mean unsurety or anxiety. Regardless of the status and size of the individual, fights are upsetting and even a dominant, strong individual has moments when he just doesn't want to deal with it, and I think that's where the ears come in.

I also have a theory that you see things like ears pinned back and teeth showing when one individual is telling another that what is being done to him is unpleasant and he doesn't like it, with all due respect. I see it as an almost apologetic show of aggression. Like, "dude, come on, quit that." I would expect to see that most often between individuals far away in the social hierarchy from each other, or a lower individual doing it to a higher status individual. I suspect there are many layers of subtlety I don't understand, though.

Brookcove(Becca) & corvus,
 
That has been the best explanation, yet.
I can tell the older dog is trying to give a warning, all he is saying "Back Off", really, he doesn't want to deal with it, but if he has to, he will.
 
The little pictures on those websites are just too basic for me, they don't cover enough situations, people who own prick eared dogs understand that.[]

Prick eared dogs can still move their ears, and the most important thing about reading body language is seeing the whole picture, or "read the whole dog" as Brian Kilcommons says. 

Flattened ears on a dog that is crouching on the floor in a curve may be quite different than flattened ears on a dog standing upright making an agonistic pucker, just as a dog wagging its tail in a lazy arc may be different than a dog wagging its tail in staccato.  Dogs may be quite aggressive in their actions, while quite insecure or anxious mentally. 

Prick eared dogs generally get into trouble when the rest of their body language suggests to another dog that they might act offensively.  Upright posture, standing on tiptoes, piloerection, etc.  But, owners can artificially send a calming signal to another approaching dog by positioning their dog accordingly.  If you ask your dog to curve its body and present the side, rather than the forward approach, the other dog may just go on about its business and leave yours alone.  Turid Rugaas' video shows this action and the result quite nicely.  It's worth viewing.

I think in the example of the senior GSD, it's body language and context. What some have defined as submissive is actually defensive-aggressive (get away from my couch!) and is a warning to the pup. An instinctive reason for the ears pinning back is partially to provide less of an target but I think it's also a muscular thing that happens when they raise the snout to bare the teeth. And when they bare the teeth, that's not submission.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Prick eared dogs can still move their ears, and the most important thing about reading body language is seeing the whole picture, or "read the whole dog" as Brian Kilcommons says. 

 
Absolutely, some can even "break" their ears in the middle folding them down backwards and/or forwards.  They can swivel their ears back and out, or swivel them forwards as well.  Having seen my dogs move their ears in ridiculous fashion, I totally agree with your statement.  Even when going through low brush, I've seen them lower their ears in anticipation of a low branch as well. 
 
The ears, IMO, are more like punctuation on the rest of the body language, not the entire sentence. 
 

  And when they bare the teeth, that's not submission

 
 
While that's true in most cases, there is the so called "submissive grin" which can be interpreted as "baring the teeth." 
 
As always, the rest of the body language is very important.  I've seen Xerxes on his back, legs splayed, with his teeth showing...believe me, he's not being aggressive in this situation.  By the same token, I've also seen him with mouth closed, chest out, tail held high, leaning forward slightly, with piloerection and growling.  This isn't submissive behavior either-but quite an aggressive posture.  This is his way of telling another dog to "Back the F up, NOW!"  Having seen this body posture several times, I know exactly what it means-and I've had to run (at the off leash dog park) to extricate him from situations that he had no business getting himself into...(one with a particularly large Tosa that was showing the exact same body language YIKES!)
 
I know that Xerxes is a "dominant" dog based upon his breed, his intactness, and his actions.  So as an owner I have to be super vigilant whenever we're at any off leash area.  I've seen posturing, circling, and other dominant behavior that I'll run over and intervene-yet the owners of the other dogs are absolutely clueless and say "oh no, they're getting along great..."  Double Yikes!

While that's true in most cases, there is the so called "submissive grin" which can be interpreted as "baring the teeth.

And THEN....There is also baring teeth playfully, but htat is with the but stuck in the air ina playful pose.

I also have a theory that you see things like ears pinned back and teeth showing when one individual is telling another that what is being done to him is unpleasant and he doesn't like it, with all due respect. I see it as an almost apologetic show of aggression. Like, "dude, come on, quit that." I would expect to see that most often between individuals far away in the social hierarchy from each other, or a lower individual doing it to a higher status individual. I suspect there are many layers of subtlety I don't understand, though.

I totally agree with that description. Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough but I meant only that the ears-back position is not a sign of dominance... sure a submissive and insecure dog can show aggression, as I think I said already. To me that ears-back aggressive display is characteristic of a dog whose making a threat but doesn't feel very confident that he can back it up. I have seen it in my insecure dog before... believe it or not people with drop-eared dogs can still read body language including ear position. I do believe that dogs are mentally complex enough to have what we call mixed emotions, and internal conflict.

I totally agree with that description. Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough but I meant only that the ears-back position is not a sign of dominance... sure a submissive and insecure dog can show aggression, as I think I said already. To me that ears-back aggressive display is characteristic of a dog whose making a threat but doesn't feel very confident that he can back it up. I have seen it in my insecure dog before... believe it or not people with drop-eared dogs can still read body language including ear position. I do believe that dogs are mentally complex enough to have what we call mixed emotions, and internal conflict.

Oh, believe me, he can back it up, as he does many times to keep the pack in check.

Have you had any experience with German Shepherds at all?
I mean, having them live in your home and interact?
I think, it is really important that folks who have had that kind of experience make statements, otherwise, it could be playing a guessing game........correct?

Oooo! Good "stuff" being discussed here!
 
I opened a thread for the discussion of these "dominant" and "submissive" signals as a language in the CM area for those who might want to discuss not only the dog's body language, but how the dog reads our "dominant" and "submissive" body language.
 
Perhaps ear position can also indicate whether a dog is unsure about their position (asking a question so to speak) or making a statement of their position in a given situation and interaction with another being.

I don't have experience with GSDs at all but I don't think anecdotal evidence is the be-all end-all of animal behaviorism. I'm the kind of person who likes to go to scientific references for information and compare factual resources with my personal experiences to arrive at a conclusion. I like Stanley Coren a lot for canine body language references, and with a few exceptions I find most scientists and behaviorists agree with his information. It's true that animal behaviorism is a still-evolving field, as most things are. I'm not interested in getting in a pissing match over what I view as a scientific, well-researched question, so perhaps we should move along on this topic.

jones:
I can understand your point, but there some posters here who have had that type of experience, doesn't that count for anything?

I would never come forward as an expert with Spaniels, because I have not had experience with those breeds.

I might add that the before mentioned Shepherd stands over the other ones to confirm his position. A pack leader second to me. 
Also, in the book that you are referring to, does the author describe the exact same situation as I described, dog in his bed, laying down?