Did You Dump the Dominance Theory?

IRT snownose; Cairns, JRTs, a beagle, a lab mix, a bull terrier, a staffy mix, a collie mix and a rottie.

Alrighty, do you have any pics....we love pics of our furry friends.

What approach do you use in a multi-dog household?

How many do you have in your home now?
 
I had to add one tiny question, hope you don't mind.
In one of your earlier posts you wrote:
 

 
This was in response to an earlier question of mine in reference to your experience with aggression.
 
Just a few posts ago, you wrote this:
 
<  Before that we owned (as a family) a nasty lab that was people AND dog aggressive.  He attacked several people and dogs, one dog died and after the last attack on a person he was PTS.  Guess what method was being used to train him? >
 
Is it possible I didn't read it correctly, because that left me a little confused.
Could you clarify?

ORIGINAL: snownose

With all due respect, your experience with dogs sounds like you are trying to expand it, but it is still pretty limited.

I would not call it limited, it might not have reached the sky like you think your's has[]

Well, don't worry.  All you have to do is spend every spare dime you earn on seminars, books, tapes and lessons, like I did.  Find a good trainer to apprentice with, as I did.  Get experience handling dogs in a shelter environment, or in a kennel situation, and work with breeds from every group like I did.  Then, you, too, can have someone on a message board tell you you're full of crap LOL. []

Then, you, too, can have someone on a message board tell you you're full of crap LOL.

 
I've had people tell me that, anyway. It gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling.[]

Well, don't worry. All you have to do is spend every spare dime you earn on seminars, books, tapes and lessons, like I did. Find a good trainer to apprentice with, as I did. Get experience handling dogs in a shelter environment, or in a kennel situation, and work with breeds from every group like I did. Then, you, too, can have someone on a message board tell you you're full of crap LOL.

 
Actually, I have done the kennel thing, worked in a shelter without pay, own books, magazines, talked to trainers......sorry no seminars........
 
I prefer to spend my money on rescues, fosters, and any animal I can possibly help.
 
How did you achieve to get your certification, that might be something I would consider doing.....?

ORIGINAL: ron2

Then, you, too, can have someone on a message board tell you you're full of crap LOL.

I've had people tell me that, anyway. It gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling.[]

Oh, yeah, I can feel the love. []

I know that when I did it to Conrad (he was never hit, but he was leash-popped and occaisionally rolled, and we had a very stern style with him) I didn't like it at all. But I thought that was the only way, and that's what everyone had told me to do. Show the dog who's boss. If he doesn't comply with a command, make him. Strike the fear of god into him. You're the human, he's the dog, the dog does what the human says 100% of the time, no matter what. If he doesn't tow the line, force him to. And just...yuck. Unpleasant. Conrad is about the softest dog in the universe, as large as he is, and none of that was at all necessary. But everyone told me that if I didn't train my dog that way, he'd be unhappy because he wouldn't know who his alpha was.

 
I hear ya on that sister. I think what can sometimes be confusing - like for me when I got Russell - is that a soft or submissive dog can rather easily appear to be stubborn, willful and even dominant when being handled by dominance-based techniques, because insecurity and confusion can result in the dog acting out and misbehaving as a stress response - or because stress is clouding their ability to hear, learn, and understand. Russell is very submissive to humans, so much so he's prone to submissive urination (with other dogs he's more like an uppity middle manager, lol)... leash pops freaked him out and when I trained that way he frequently ignored me and seemed totally unable to focus. But on the surface that's not a clearly frightened or cowed dog - on the contrary he seemed to be blowing me off. Yet lo and behold, every time I took the pressure off and used only positive reinforcement, he tuned right in. And then once I started clicker training, it was like suddenly I unscrambled the channel and my 'ADD dog' was gone. To me nothing says "I'm your leader" like clear communication.

jones:
Is Russell your only dog?
Have you ever dealt with what one considers a power breed, or owned several?

Yes, no and no.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Oh, yeah, I can feel the love. []

Hey Anne you havent tell me yet which school you got your trainer certificate from []

Yes, no and no.

 
Thank you, he is a cutie[]

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

IRT amstaffy, often the words emboldened are the words the whole sentence hinges on and I'm emphasising them so no one takes it the wrong way.  Obviously backfired.

Try italics or a different color text. They're not as "pushy".

I'm jumping in slightly late....

[blockquote]quote:

I don't get your point - predatory drive is not the same as dominance. Submissive dogs hunt, too, and, in fact, timidity is a dominant (in the genetic sense) trait that makes it more likely the dog (or wolf) will survive. [/blockquote]

My point, certain traits are hardwired into the dog's brain.
Dominance is a big part of the dog world, having witnessed it myself.
Just like the grouping together as strays and creating a pack. Dogs in my opinion still show a lot of wolf behavior, and we as humans try make dogs more human than what they really are.

spiritdogs, I forgot to ask you, are you just a trainer, or are you a behaviorist, too?

From now on I'm calling dominance the "D-Word". I want to shoot people when they say they can't feed their chihuahua raw meat, because they aren't close enough to their ancestors, and they're to small to handle it. If you were to take a chihuahua, whippet, GSD, schnauzer, wolf and bull dog skull and line them up, you will notice that they more or less have the same structure. Maybe different shaped stops and muzzles, but the teeth and teeth lay out is the same. That alone proves that even if it is a chihuahua, it is still in the same genetic field as to how far it is from the wild as a husky or a GSD or a rottie.

Then take behavior.The same as a wolf, if the tail is erect, teeth are bared, and the ears are back, you had better back off...this dog is clearly not happy. When it comes into pack theory, there is no doubt that the wolves form packs. I believe that they form packs to hunt larger animals. Single handedly they obviously can't take down a caribou or an elk, and they realize that. As SOON as they make that kill, one of them has to show off their D-word to take it as their own food. Dogs think this way.

Wow, that dog is angry! Make sure it doesn't hurt me!
Oooh look! That dog is taking my kill! Defend it!

And thoughts like that. They do not think:

That dog is clearly the D-word! I better back down and show that it is clearly the stronger one! Ishall act submissive to make my point

or

I am the top dog! You shall respect mah authoritah!

When they finish making the kill,they go back into their mini-pack of mates and puppies. The reason why people say the two "alphas" can only breed, is because they are the parents. After the bitch has a litter, she's not about to breed with her puppies. When the puppies are old enough to fend for themselves, they flee the pack. If they don't, the mom gives them the boot. Then they find mates and start the cycle all over again.

ORIGINAL: snownose

I dumped it a LOONNGG time ago. The one thing I cannot stand when I comes to the whole dominance thing is probably rolling. What most people don't realize is that the only time wolves would roll each other or stand over them is when they are about to kill them...

Incorrect, if it were then dogs would be on the verge of killing each other.
My dogs play rough, there is play growling, rolling, standing over each other.................no blood, just slobber.

How many times have you seen two brothers punching, swearing and beating the crap out of eachother? How many times was it for fun? How many times was it real? Most likely, it was play fighting.

The same as a wolf, if the tail is erect, teeth are bared, and the ears are back, you had better back off

 
I agree that you should back off from a dog showing that posture, but in fact the ears back (with teeth bared, growling, etc) indicates a dog showing anxiety or fear aggression rather than dominance aggression. In a dog showing dominance aggression the ears would be forward. However, a fearful-aggressive dog is often more dangerous than a dominant-aggressive dog so it's still wise to take those signals quite seriously.

My first training experiences were with leash pops and the like.  I dumped that about 2 years ago when I began agility training and saw the difference positive associations make with my dogs.  I always thought Kota was a tough, "stubborn" dog but had an agility instructor tell me that he was actually a very soft dog and that his "stubbornness" was avoidance of scary situations.  And then after reading several books, one noteable one on Calming Signals by Turrid Rugaas, I realized the truth in the trainer's statement.  I knew Tasha was soft because she shut down and wouldn't offer anything due to leash pops and correction.  Kota, I thought he was willful because he'd turn his head away, or sniff the ground, or lick his lips as he turned his head.  Sound familiar?  Calming signals!   So I dumped the old-style leash corrections and pushing into sits about 2 to 3 years ago.  I've seen such remarkeable changes in my dogs over these last two years.  It's been great!!

How's that for sticking to the topic Anne? []

I agree that you should back off from a dog showing that posture, but in fact the ears back (with teeth bared, growling, etc) indicates a dog showing anxiety or fear aggression rather than dominance aggression. In a dog showing dominance aggression the ears would be forward. However, a fearful-aggressive dog is often more dangerous than a dominant-aggressive dog so it's still wise to take those signals quite seriously.

 
I am going to have to disagree, sorry, but my second German Shepherd in line is 7 years old, he is the pack ruler, second to me.
When he is in his bed, and the youngest GSD is coming around, his teeth are showing, ears back, and what he is saying is, back off..............I am certain a 111 pound, 7 year old GSD is not scared of a 4.5 month old pup.
The pup puts his ears back and lays down, trying to lick his mouth........
 
Just my observation...........don't be so focused on the ears..........watch body language.......