Did You Dump the Dominance Theory?

    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Chuffy

    The only time I have ever seen that situation first hand, the "dominance theory" see (OP again) was being applied and it didn't work. 

     
    So you did see a "technique" only one time, probably poorly applied by someone with maybe not enough experience and then you decided that everyone that decides to be dominant is using the wrong approach?
    • Gold Top Dog
    Ooh, ohh! *waving hand* May I play this game of True Confessions too? Since I've been opening my big mouth here in the Training forums of late. . .

    My first dog ever, ever, is still with me and she's 13 - I've had her since a six week old pup. However, since I went very quickly from first-time dog owner, to dog sports trainer, to casual rescuer, to full-time rescuer, to farm owner, to farm owner specializing in rehabbing "troubled" dogs, to professional dog trainer, I've had a pretty intense dog training experience.

    Since my livelihood depends on sheep, I spend all the "Seminar" money I have on sheepdog training, with an occasional sport training class like the one I'm signed up for next month. However, I've read reams of canine behavior theory and while I'm still working out a style of my own to put it consistently into practice, I've done pretty well so far incorporating positive training principles with the sterner requirements of training on stock. Still working on that one - it's a complex puzzle.

    As to aggression. Probably three quarters of my dog training experience has been specializing in aggressive dogs. I'm largely self-taught, but greatly appreciate the insight of Donaldson and McConnell. McConnell in particular has highly practical approaches to many types of aggressive triggers seen in BCs. 99% of aggression in rescue BCs has to do with fear and lack of structure. I use a technique developed by a woman who I'm amazed to realize now, thinking about it, really had no professional experience either. But it's a time proven method to "defuse" these highly reactive dogs and give them a framework to rebuild their shattered worlds. She borrowed it from a trainer in Germany, if I remember correctly - and now we are going back about thirty years.

    I've related before how I'll take a dog and assign it a crate or kennel in a quiet place in the house. An aggressive dog will wear a chain leash (not chewable), so as to avoid any confrontations when its necessary to restrain the dog. The dog is taken out on a strict schedule, all needs met, but interaction is kept at a very gentle and minimal level. This is not punishment, it's a time for the dog to develop some expectations with regard to me ("She's not aggressive, good things happen when she's around, she's not forcing me to do scary stuff"). Depending on the dog, I may do this for as much as a week. It may take a couple of weeks to get a severely undersocialized dog through this phase.

    After this I'll gradually incorporate tasks and training sessions for the dog. Everything stays very formal and low key until the dog clearly shows that he is comfortable with the routine and looks forward to it. Any sign of discomfort and we move back a step. There is usually a time, at around three to four weeks, that the dog will "break out" with a complete reversal of personality. Nice dogs may suddenly show nutty or pushy behavior, pushy dogs may suddenly become highly reserved and nervous. Aggression in aggressive dogs will break out at this point, almost without fail.

    This is when I become The Person Who Says No. I deal with maybe one or two incidents with firm consequences (here a deliberate departure from pure R+, as it sadly takes too long for most rescues to avoid simply Saying No). After that the dogs are fine and ready to be rehomed with a knowleable and responsible handler. I think this has something to do with the extinction process, though I need to do some more reading on this.

    How I handle individual aggressive events is highly variable, depending on the trigger, the dog's attitude during the incident, and how easy it was to quell it. I don't mess around with an actively attacking dog - I've only been bitten a couple times (many years ago) and don't intend to make a habit of it. I've learned to recognize precursers, signs of stress, and how to defuse these quickly. BCs are darned fast, faster than me so when the dog has decided to bite it's too late, usually! [:o] Emergency restraint can include a thrown blanket, a leash looped around the head.

    In a very severe emergency where another dog or person is at risk I'll take a dog by the back of the neck and throw him down FACE FIRST, with myself kneeling on the dog, one hand holding the head flat against the ground. Rolling an aggressive dog is about the stupidest thing you can do - you are freeing up all four legs and conveniently positioning the dog's teeth right by your face. A dog with its head flat on the ground cannot open its jaws, and with its legs folded up it cannot turn itself loose, as canine muscles have great powers to contract, but the extensors are very weak. This is a RESTRAINT not a punishment or an attempt at behavioral modification, and should never, ever be tried by someone who doesn't have experience doing this. Also never do this if another dog is involved, even if you are experienced.

    Now I'll evaluate what happened and address the trigger though desensitization or impulse control exercises, depending on what the underlying trigger was. There are about as many different types of aggression and combinations of "types" as there are dogs, so I won't go into all that here. BCs also have a couple particular forms of aggression that can only be managed, not "cured", as they are pathological in origin. I'm familiar with the symptoms of these though it can take some very intense evaluation to be sure. Both are treatable through drug therapy, and one must be combined with intense and constant behavioral modification as well. Sometimes one type of aggression can lead to other types, and it's necessary to cut through all the layers of aggressive behavior with different approaches for each incident. It's a ballet you dance on a minute-by-minute basis, which is why one establishes a clean slate at the beginning and why we offer constant opportunities to "defuse" privately.

    Notice that this is almost the exact opposite of the Leadership Walk, flooding, etc! I don't say this to say that Cesar is Wrong, Wrong, Just Wrong, but to point out that there are many ways to skin a cat. His method is what I'd call "pulling off the band-aid quickly". It gets the job done, but it's a bit traumatic. Jack's methodology also follows the "quick band-aid removal" model. When I have the leisure, I use the "slow bandaid removal" methods as they transfer more easily over to ordinary mortals. [;)] It's easier to explain clicker training, leadership-by-example, or lure training, than to explain the exact timing needed for correction-based methods (though I've done that too - I can offer both).
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: snownose

    You must have misunderstood my intention.[;)]

    I only wanted to find out in detail, because certain members on this board are under the impression that you have been an active trainer for 45 years.

    Also, I was curious as to where you received your certificate, just to lay out options for members who might be interested in achieving that level, including me.


    Well, I have actively trained my own dogs and trained dogs for others for 45 years (rescues/shelter/friends/senior citizens).  You asked when I started doing it for money. [:)]
    I don't think too much of most programs, but if you want to go to a trainer's certification class, think about San Francisco SPCA, or the one Dana Crevling runs at Dogs of Course.  What state are you in?


    • Gold Top Dog
    Again, not singing off same hymn sheet

     
    "Ave, Maria ..."
    • Gold Top Dog
    What state are you in?

     
    I am in NC........did you get your's locally?
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

    Well, I have actively trained my own dogs and trained dogs for others for 45 years (rescues/shelter/friends/senior citizens).  You asked when I started doing it for money. [:)]
    I don't think too much of most programs, but if you want to go to a trainer's certification class, think about San Francisco SPCA, or the one Dana Crevling runs at Dogs of Course.  What state are you in?

     
    I've been thinking about doing the same for a while, which school did you get your trainer certificate from Anne? i dont have any and maybe i would save some money and go to the same place than you [:)
    • Gold Top Dog
    Rebecca, that was a clear, well thought out post, and quite sensible in terms of your explanation of restraint vs punishment.  I especially like that you pointed out what I have been screaming at my TV about for weeks - don't put an attacking dog on its side.  Close the mouth! [;)]   Feel free to hang out in the training section LOL [:D]. 

    • Gold Top Dog
    CM has how many yrs of experience

     
    He is sneaking up on 50 and has been around dogs since he was a small boy. This included large groups of dogs, both on the farm and in town. He just doesn't happen to have a degree.
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: ron2

    CM has how many yrs of experience


    He is sneaking up on 50 and has been around dogs since he was a small boy. This included large groups of dogs, both on the farm and in town. He just doesn't happen to have a degree.


     
    Me thinks he's 37.
     
     
     
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    Chuffy,
     I wasn't asking for your credentials I was just curious how many different dogs/breeds you've come in contact with on a personal level including the breed you own now.
    Having the breed I own and love as well as Rottis in the past living in a multiple dog household sometimes the "rules" are a little different, especially when you are dealing with males(my personal favorite) and dogs who are not yours from puppyhood...no digging into your claims of expertise, just a little insight as to why the tone of your posts are what they are...you know caps, bold and such
    • Gold Top Dog
    My bad, the gray hair threw me off. I could have sworn he was at least in his mid-40's
    • Gold Top Dog
    IRT amstaffy, often the words emboldened are the words the whole sentence hinges on and I'm emphasising them so no one takes it the wrong way.  Obviously backfired.
     
    IRT snownose; Cairns, JRTs, a beagle, a lab mix, a bull terrier, a staffy mix, a collie mix and a rottie.
     
    IRT; espencer, no that wasn't the only time I've seen harsh, imposing dominance techniques fail.  Maybe it's like the unforgiveable curses in the Harry Potter books - you've got to really mean it in your heart or it won't work.  Given that most dogs these days are not expendable working creatures, but kept solely as companions for the love they provide and because they are something you can lavish love, care and attention on, I think a great many dog owners struggle and fail for the same reason I did - they don't want to dominate the dog, they want him to respect and obey of his own free will.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Chuffy

    IRT; espencer, no that wasn't the only time I've seen harsh, imposing dominance techniques fail.  Maybe it's like the unforgiveable curses in the Harry Potter books - you've got to really mean it in your heart or it won't work.  Given that most dogs these days are not expendable working creatures, but kept solely as companions for the love they provide and because they are something you can lavish love, care and attention on, I think a great many dog owners struggle and fail for the same reason I did - they don't want to dominate the dog, they want him to respect and obey of his own free will.

     
    Ok fair enough, everybody thinks the same in this forum unless your "dominance" idea is about being a bully and treat your dog as trash, if not then everybody here think that dominance is about you being the only one setting the discipline, boundries and limitations
     
    But you never answered my other questions:
     
    "My questions would be: what were you doing exactly to "handle" him before  you dumped the dominance theory? how were you "forcing" your dog into submit to you? maybe those methods you were using were not into +R or behaviorists and was a third method that is not even "dog-friendly" and is not one that we here support in this forum"
    • Gold Top Dog
    I think a great many dog owners struggle and fail for the same reason I did - they don't want to dominate the dog, they want him to respect and obey of his own free will.


    I know I've talked to several people (er, many of the female persuasion) who have admitted to me that they don't want to train their dog because someone has told them that in order to do that they have to dominate their dog and force him to submit, and they don't have the heart to do that kind of thing. I know that when I did it to Conrad (he was never hit, but he was leash-popped and occaisionally rolled, and we had a very stern style with him) I didn't like it at all. But I thought that was the only way, and that's what everyone had told me to do. Show the dog who's boss. If he doesn't comply with a command, make him. Strike the fear of god into him. You're the human, he's the dog, the dog does what the human says 100% of the time, no matter what. If he doesn't tow the line, force him to. And just...yuck. Unpleasant. Conrad is about the softest dog in the universe, as large as he is, and none of that was at all necessary. But everyone told me that if I didn't train my dog that way, he'd be unhappy because he wouldn't know who his alpha was.

    The people who've told me they don't want to train their dogs becuase they don't want to treat them like that always do it in these like hushed whispers like they're afriad the Dominance Police are going to over-hear them and accuse them of being pansies. I always take the opportunity to discuss NILIF and nonconfrontational leadership techniques.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: houndlove

    Show the dog who's boss. If he doesn't comply with a command, make him. Strike the fear of god into him.

     
    Yeah i know what your mean and i dont think any person in this forum treats a dog like that or admire a trainer that acts that way [;)]