Did You Dump the Dominance Theory?

ORIGINAL: snownose

I don't get your point - predatory drive is not the same as dominance. Submissive dogs hunt, too, and, in fact, timidity is a dominant (in the genetic sense) trait that makes it more likely the dog (or wolf) will survive.

My point, certain traits are hardwired into the dog's brain.
Dominance is a big part of the dog world, having witnessed it myself.
Just like the grouping together as strays and creating a pack. Dogs in my opinion still show a lot of wolf behavior, and we as humans try make dogs more human than what they really are.

spiritdogs, I forgot to ask you, are you just a trainer, or are you a behaviorist, too?

I am a trainer who occasionally offers behavioral consultations, but I am not a graduate level behaviorist - I have a Cum Laude BS in Psychology and over 45 years experience with dogs. 
Are you a trainer or a behaviorist?

Wow Spiritdogs, 45 years as a trainer?  Have you always trained purely positive?   Or did you convert over the years?  Shoot, 45 years ago wasn't all the training correction based?

I am a trainer who occasionally offers behavioral consultations, but I am not a graduate level behaviorist - I have a Cum Laude BS in Psychology and over 45 years experience with dogs.
Are you a trainer or a behaviorist?

If you are asking about dog training degree, sorry no, only in Business Admin.
I haven't been around dogs as long as you have, I am only in my 30s.
I was, however a breeder (Huskies), had dogs all my life, rescued, and have been actively involved in fostering, also.
I have volunteered my time at shelters, and now have 5 dogs,on occasion that number spikes due to fostering, and taking in dogs while folks go on a well earned vacation.
As I have mentioned before, I read many books, listened to experts, and mostly bring in my own experience with dogs.
I take more to larger dogs, and my experience is with large dogs only, the smallest being Huskies.

When did you become a trainer, as a person who actively earns money that way?
Sorry to edit, had to ask one more tiny question, where did you get your degree in reference to dog training.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

ORIGINAL: Callista

ORIGINAL: snownose

I think you are underestimating the nature of dogs, and how they view a situation they are encountering or being brought into.
Delay in showing a dog who is in charge could prove fatal.

I'm not talking about delaying showing a dog who's in charge--I'm talking about the method you use to show the dog who's in charge. Basically I mean it ought to be a method that allows the dog to accept you as leader because he thinks you're a fit leader, not because you forced him to accept you as leader. If anything, coercion takes longer to convince him you're alpha, even though you might get results sooner from an intimidated dog than a trusting one.

Wonderfully put

ORIGINAL: Callista

[edit] Dog training rarely "proves fatal", and there's very few of us who'd still have dogs if it did, right? If your life's in danger, use whatever method you have to. I'm talking about the usual dog situations here, not some psychopathic canine who's out to murder you.

Very good point

ORIGINAL: espencer

I agree that 99% of the times you dont need to be forcefull, the other 1% are dominant aggressive dogs even with the owners, if you dont do something about it (like a professional only doing an "alpha roll") will result with the dog PTS

But i am sure than the rest only need the right attitude with the right techiques []

Disagree.  That one percent needs a handler more skilled at displaying "leadership" as in my post above.  To anyone that thinks force is OK:  Personally, I think that if you feel you need to resort to using force, you have failed in a very fundamental way, even if the dog falls into line.  To anyone who uses force as a matter of course and believes it the best way forward rather than a last resort and unpreferable....well then if there is such a thing as reincarnation I hope like heck I am not reincarnated as one of your dogs.

In addition the theory behind the alpha roll is outdated and flawed.  I believe it is never necessary and no one should use it.

This sounds like a good time to reiterate the Native American legend of how you get to the spirit world.  When you die, you are met at a great chasm by all the dogs you have ever known.  Over the chasm sits a giant log, held up by all the dogs.  If you have been kind, they hold the log securely for you to cross over.  If you have not, they drop the log, thus you as well, into the chasm. 

Personally, if I can have the respect and obedience from my dogs that they so freely give since I started using positive training, and without having to resort to pushing, prodding, tsst'ing, pinning, choking, or otherwise coercing their behavior, why would I want to do it any other way?  The sad thing is that *anyone* can learn these techniques and apply them.  Rocket science it ain't, but it is science, and it works.

ORIGINAL: snownose

I am a trainer who occasionally offers behavioral consultations, but I am not a graduate level behaviorist - I have a Cum Laude BS in Psychology and over 45 years experience with dogs.
Are you a trainer or a behaviorist?

If you are asking about dog training degree, sorry no, only in Business Admin.
I haven't been around dogs that long, I am only in my 30s.
I was, however a breeder (Huskies), had dogs all my life, rescued, and have been actively involved in fostering, also.
I have volunteered my time at shelters, and now have 5 dogs,on occasion that number spikes due to fostering, and taking in dogs while folks go on a well earned vacation.
As I have mentioned before, I read many books, listened to experts, and mostly bring in my own experience with dogs.
I take more to larger dogs, and my experience is with large dogs only, the smallest being Huskies.

With all due respect, your experience with dogs sounds like you are trying to expand it, but it is still pretty limited.  I deal with hundreds and hundreds of dogs of all breeds every year.  I have shelter experience as an assistant ACO, and I run a program involving therapy dogs, services for senior citizens with pets, do behavioral consultations within my scope of expertise, and I train privately and at two facilities.  I'm not sure why you think that I need to have a grad degree and be a behaviorist to know what I'm talking about.  But, I can tell you that I own most of the top training/behavior books and tapes that dogwise and tawzer sell, much to the distress of my bank account. 
If you truly want more knowledge on how wolf descendancy impacts the modern dog, two authors that you might want to consider are James Serpell and Ray Coppinger.

This sounds like a good time to reiterate the Native American legend of how you get to the spirit world. When you die, you are met at a great chasm by all the dogs you have ever known. Over the chasm sits a giant log, held up by all the dogs. If you have been kind, they hold the log securely for you to cross over. If you have not, they drop the log, thus you as well, into the chasm.

Oh lordy, I sure hope Tiny isn't there when I get there[8|].   When I was 8 I took him for a ride on my new bicycle, in the basket of course. []   Well..   Tiny wasn't as excited as me and jumped out and broke his leg.  I thought my mother was going to kill me ,worst of all, Tiny never did seem to want to be near me much after that.[]

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

ORIGINAL: snownose

I am a trainer who occasionally offers behavioral consultations, but I am not a graduate level behaviorist - I have a Cum Laude BS in Psychology and over 45 years experience with dogs.
Are you a trainer or a behaviorist?

If you are asking about dog training degree, sorry no, only in Business Admin.
I haven't been around dogs that long, I am only in my 30s.
I was, however a breeder (Huskies), had dogs all my life, rescued, and have been actively involved in fostering, also.
I have volunteered my time at shelters, and now have 5 dogs,on occasion that number spikes due to fostering, and taking in dogs while folks go on a well earned vacation.
As I have mentioned before, I read many books, listened to experts, and mostly bring in my own experience with dogs.
I take more to larger dogs, and my experience is with large dogs only, the smallest being Huskies.

With all due respect, your experience with dogs sounds like you are trying to expand it, but it is still pretty limited.  I deal with hundreds and hundreds of dogs of all breeds every year.  I have shelter experience as an assistant ACO, and I run a program involving therapy dogs, services for senior citizens with pets, do behavioral consultations within my scope of expertise, and I train privately and at two facilities.  I'm not sure why you think that I need to have a grad degree and be a behaviorist to know what I'm talking about.  But, I can tell you that I own most of the top training/behavior books and tapes that dogwise and tawzer sell, much to the distress of my bank account. 
If you truly want more knowledge on how wolf descendancy impacts the modern dog, two authors that you might want to consider are James Serpell and Ray Coppinger.

A degree in Psychology covers Pavlov, Skinner, and others whose work forms the basis for current theories of canine learning. []  Many dog professionals have Psych degrees, or degrees in Ethology, Zoology, or another behavioral science. 
I have 7+ years professional training experience.
Did you want my list of seminars attended, too?

You must have misunderstood my intention.[]
 
I only wanted to find out in detail, because certain members on this board are under the impression that you have been an active trainer for 45 years.
 
Also, I was curious as to where you received your certificate, just to lay out options for members who might be interested in achieving that level, including me.

With all due respect, your experience with dogs sounds like you are trying to expand it, but it is still pretty limited.

 
I would not call it limited, it might not have reached the sky like you think your's has[]

Where is Glenda?, she always jumps in at this part of the thread []

My first dog was a dog aggressive intact male.  Castration made him worse.  I was only able to handle him after dumping the dominance theory.  When I stopped trying to force him to submit to me, he was able to start trusting me and that went a long way.  I watched Monty Roberts in action and noticed, as above, how little dogs can often rule the roost in a house full of big powerful dogs, without resorting to aggression or confrontation.  THAT was how I wanted to express my leadership - in such a way that the dog willingly decides to follow, trust and respect me.  Before that we owned (as a family) a nasty lab that was people AND dog aggressive.  He attacked several people and dogs, one dog died and after the last attack on a person he was PTS.  Guess what method was being used to train him?  See OP.

Since then I have not owned a dog aggressive or people aggressive dog - part luck maybe, part extra hard work socialising them so it doesn't happen and building them up in stages.  My first dog was a small dog - a terrier - and I dread to think what would have happened if he had been a larger breed while I was still failing with the dominance thing.  Someone would have got hurt, undoubtedly.  I'm sure the method I used on the little dog and others since is not reliant on the dog being small or naturally submissive - but there are years yet for that theory to be tested.

There is no way I am going to be drawn into a discussion about qualifications, experience etc etc because it looks like a direct challenge and I avoid those wherever possible.  In any case, I would probably lose.  However, I don't think the fact that I dont have 30yrs+ experience and a Phd invalidates my belief that being able to work in harmony with the dog is far preferable to imposing your will upon it.  CM has how many yrs of experience??  And I don't agree with most of his methods.  OTOH, he has no qualifications but boy, he still gets results.  Callista doesn't even own a dog and seems to view herself as a newbie, but I'd say her instinct re bhvr and communicating with a dog are right on track.  If we're going to bandy around what degrees we have, what experience we have and what books we've written we'll never get back on topic and we'll probably scare away a newbie who got their first dog last week but still has useful tips, good ideas and sound advice to offer.  Is anyone with me on this?

Chuffy, I think some folks were just curious as to what experience you would bring to the table, considering you discredit some posters here, including me.

Have you ever dealt with a multi-dog household with powerful breeds like German Shepherds, Chows or Rotties?
Did you ever bring in rescues that were not puppies to a multi-dog household?

I think my question is on topic, because imo, "Dominance" is a big factor with those breeds.
 
I am sorry, I got a little confused, so I will ask, what type of dogs do you own?

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

My first dog was a dog aggressive intact male.  Castration made him worse.  I was only able to handle him after dumping the dominance theory.  When I stopped trying to force him to submit to me, he was able to start trusting me and that went a long way. 

My questions would be: what were you doing exactly to "handle" him before  you dumped the dominance theory? how were you "forcing" your dog into submit to you? maybe those methods you were using were not into +R or behaviorists and was a third method that is not even "dog-friendly" and is not one that we here support in this forum

Sorry if i ask too much but i want to understand where you come from []

The only time I have ever seen that situation first hand, the "dominance theory" see (OP again) was being applied and it didn't work.  I have yet to test out my theory in that specific situation.  My suspicions are that imposing yourself forcefully is still not necessary, but again, there are years yet for that theory to be proved or disproved.  Could I just get something clear - are we on opposite sides of the fence here?  Do you impose yourself forcefully on your own pack and if so how do you do it?  It could be we're using the same words to say different things.  If not, it's not likely we'll ever agree and there's not a lot more that can be said without repeating ourselves.
 
I don't think I have discredited anyone.  I keep using words like "suspicions", "belief", "opinion" and "theory"and if anyone takes it that I'm presenting solid fact and gets their feathers ruffled there's not a great deal I can do about it.  If on the other hand you need to have a doctorate to post here and opinions and limited personal experience are not valid or valued, someone say so and I'll scram.

Come on.....who here has a PHD????Not me....lol
 
If you want to break it down, here is my use of "Force", I think I am writing this for the 10th time....lol
 
I watch my dogs very closely, if I see any mischief in the making I break it up by saying" Ah" or "Eh", I touch my dogs on the shoulders or neck and make my noise, only until they get it.
I have applied leash-pops. I train my dogs to sit by putting my hand on their behind and giving the "Sit" command, I praise, I give them affection when things are done correctly. I have body blocked my dogs, that one works like a charm, dog backs up no problem. I can snap my fingers, point and dogs move in that direction.
I have grabbed my dogs by the scruff when a fight was about to break.
 
All in all, I feel that my stronger personality, if you will an alpha personality has given me the upper edge ( I think Anne suffers from the same)[]
 
Unless, one has walked in a situation as mine, meaning, a multi- dog household, with a mix of rescues, fosters, and purchased dogs, and all powerful breeds, then one can judge me.
 
All the above would be exercising"Dominance" in my opinion.
 
I still don't know what kind of dogs you have.