Did You Dump the Dominance Theory?

Actually, the dog that postures over another dog is not always a leader dog.  In fact, these are often so-called "beta" dogs, sometimes known as "wannabe leaders".  Nor is the dog that rolls over always a submissive dog.  Some very dominant dogs roll to prevent another dog from posturing over them.  And, some dominant dogs will duck their heads away from being patted, not because anyone abused them in the past, or they are frightened, but because they think a subordinate should not be so rude as to put their body parts over the leader dog's head.  Dog body language is complex and nuanced, again a good reason for reading the whole dog and the context in which the behavior occurs.  

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Actually, the dog that postures over another dog is not always a leader dog.  In fact, these are often so-called "beta" dogs, sometimes known as "wannabe leaders".  Nor is the dog that rolls over always a submissive dog.  Some very dominant dogs roll to prevent another dog from posturing over them.  And, some dominant dogs will duck their heads away from being patted, not because anyone abused them in the past, or they are frightened, but because they think a subordinate should not be so rude as to put their body parts over the leader dog's head.  Dog body language is complex and nuanced, again a good reason for reading the whole dog and the context in which the behavior occurs.  

 
I agree! Who was the author you mentioned in another thread who goes into this in more detail?

ORIGINAL: Angelique

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Actually, the dog that postures over another dog is not always a leader dog.  In fact, these are often so-called "beta" dogs, sometimes known as "wannabe leaders".  Nor is the dog that rolls over always a submissive dog.  Some very dominant dogs roll to prevent another dog from posturing over them.  And, some dominant dogs will duck their heads away from being patted, not because anyone abused them in the past, or they are frightened, but because they think a subordinate should not be so rude as to put their body parts over the leader dog's head.  Dog body language is complex and nuanced, again a good reason for reading the whole dog and the context in which the behavior occurs.  

I agree! Who was the author you mentioned in another thread who goes into this in more detail?

Sue Sternberg covers it in one of her DVD's.  Was that who you meant?

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Sue Sternberg covers it in one of her DVD's.  Was that who you meant?

 
Yes. Thanks!

Dog body language is complex and nuanced, again a good reason for reading the whole dog and the context in which the behavior occurs.

I agree.
I have watched my dogs intensely for many hours, in the scheme of things it is safe to say this dog keeps everyone in check.

Side note: spiritdogs, will you be able to pass on that info (certification) I was interested in?
 
Thank you in advance. 

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Dog body language is complex and nuanced, again a good reason for reading the whole dog and the context in which the behavior occurs.  

 
I've also seen an apparently "dominant dog" roll in front of an obviously nervous pup when his friendly advances weren't well recevied.... almost like he was showing her, look, see not so big and scary, nothing to be afraid of []  It worked too.  Mind you, that was just how I interpreted it. 

Chuffy, I pasted and copied this post from earlier, hope you don't mind, I figured it was so far back you wouldn't see[]
I am interested in your response.
 

quote:

IRT snownose; Cairns, JRTs, a beagle, a lab mix, a bull terrier, a staffy mix, a collie mix and a rottie.

Alrighty, do you have any pics....we love pics of our furry friends.

What approach do you use in a multi-dog household?

How many do you have in your home now?

I had to add one tiny question, hope you don't mind.
In one of your earlier posts you wrote:



This was in response to an earlier question of mine in reference to your experience with aggression.

Just a few posts ago, you wrote this:

< Before that we owned (as a family) a nasty lab that was people AND dog aggressive. He attacked several people and dogs, one dog died and after the last attack on a person he was PTS. Guess what method was being used to train him? >

Is it possible I didn't read it correctly, because that left me a little confused.
Could you clarify?

Definitely, both MAggie and Zhi - without doubt the top dogs here - will go up to another dog and entice play by sending appeasing messages. Curled body, tucked tail, ears half back, even muzzle licking and rolling over. Once they've begun play, though, there's no doubt who's in control.

Ben, who occasionally operates in a more dominant position, will also do this very, very rarely (he doesn't play in general). He's normally the Hall Monitor, so when he walks over to play, he's got to make himself very enticing. Most of my dogs would rather pass on playing with him because he's not Nice. But they don't have a choice if he wants to (with the exception of Zhi and Maggie). But he doesn't beat the other dog up, he just makes it so they can't resist. [] And THEN he beats the other dog up, when he's done. That's the Not Nice part.

ORIGINAL: tashakota

My first training experiences were with leash pops and the like.  I dumped that about 2 years ago when I began agility training and saw the difference positive associations make with my dogs.  I always thought Kota was a tough, "stubborn" dog but had an agility instructor tell me that he was actually a very soft dog and that his "stubbornness" was avoidance of scary situations.  And then after reading several books, one noteable one on Calming Signals by Turrid Rugaas, I realized the truth in the trainer's statement.  I knew Tasha was soft because she shut down and wouldn't offer anything due to leash pops and correction.  Kota, I thought he was willful because he'd turn his head away, or sniff the ground, or lick his lips as he turned his head.  Sound familiar?  Calming signals!   So I dumped the old-style leash corrections and pushing into sits about 2 to 3 years ago.  I've seen such remarkeable changes in my dogs over these last two years.  It's been great!!

How's that for sticking to the topic Anne? []

Wait, wait, were you using leash corrections for agility training? or why you were doing the leash corrections for exactly?

I am like snownose and have not my answers back yet from 2 persons (even if i asked twice already to both of them), one is Chuffy:

ORIGINAL: espencer

But Chuffy you never answered my other questions:

"My questions would be: what were you doing exactly to "handle" him before  you dumped the dominance theory? how were you "forcing" your dog into submit to you? maybe those methods you were using were not into +R or behaviorists and was a third method that is not even "dog-friendly" and is not one that we here support in this forum"

And the another one is Anne:

ORIGINAL: espencer

Hey Anne you havent tell me yet which school you got your trainer certificate from

I am waiting for both answers, i'm starting to think you dont want to answer []

I am like snownose and have not my answers back yet from 2 persons (even if i asked twice already to both of them), one is Chuffy:

 
espencer, forget it....looks like there won't be an answer.
I have asked several times. no response, maybe you will get an answer[8|]

Becca:
The 7 year old doesn't act like he has to appease, I have found the older a German Shepherd gets, the less playful and more serious they turn.
Just my observation, I have been around German Shepherds all my life, more than any other breed.

Are we starting this conversation more towards German sheps? Just curious...

Are we starting this conversation more towards German sheps? Just curious...

 
Nope, just milling over a situation.....

IRT espencer - I think I might have neglected to answer because my earlier posts seemed to cover it.  Some of the things I've seen CM do on his show for example (rolling, leash corrections, claiming the food bowl to name but a few).  One of houndloves earlier posts summed it up very nicely.

I can already predict your answer - I obviously didn't really "mean it", so I didn't have the "right attitude" and I was not projecting the "right energy" at the dog.  I don't think that's true - when I wanted him to do something, or stop doing something, I wasn't "hey, please don't do that".  I was "you WILL stop that right now".  As I said in an earlier post, a lot of people had me convinced this was for the dog's own good and I wanted to do the best thing for him.  It seems a bit of a cop out to me - to say, "the reason that's not working is you don't have the right attitude".  It places all the blame on the handler where in some situations it may be appropriate to conclude that the method is not right for that situation/person/dog/all three.  Even if it were true, the person will never have the "right attitude" if they are uncomfortable with what they are doing and the dog will always be able to pick up on that - which on its own is a reason to dump the tactic and try something else.

eta - As for whether they are dog friendly or not - the debate rages!!