electronic collars

Hello there

My dear friend of spirited dogs (ever read Strongheart btw? ), I was in no way trying to jab at anyone, and certainly not at anyone in particular. I read over the discussion at hand as well as recalled some disputation on this topic in a previous thread and came to a conclusion very much like Elay for instance:

"Every time the prong collar/e-collar/etc discussion comes up it almost feels like starting a good vs. evil debate."

That is, however, not the point at all or, more precisely, it ought not be. We do not discuss personal morals here but some do give - as exemplified by their line of argument - the impression as if they strive to transport their views into a generalized code of ethics.

Secondly, I wanted to express the view that simplified answers such as 'Technique A is always bad!' or 'Method B is always good!' have the same pitfall as all simple answers: they rarely do justice to the topic.

Third, I tried to point out that there is very little scientific research (the only source of quasi-reliable 'truth' for us mere mortals) on this issue, which makes any exclusionary stance, if nothing else, very unscientific and more akin to a belief; and we all know how well things play out if people are too bent to promulgate their personal beliefs as the catholic truth.

Lastly, I pointed out that "this is a tool to be used only with extreme care and only after having been taught extensively by a professional how and when to apply it properly". Therefore I cannot see whatsoever how I "offer[ed] the e-collar to anyone without personally assessing their situation". I was merely chiming in to the general discussion about the pros and cons of ecollars with aforementioned remarks, which I thought is a legitimate course of action. Plus, I was as far as I could see the only one who finally answered the simple, original, question about what is a good ecollar on todays market without assuming anything about the one asking, as opposed to many others who replied to him. I feel that if you ask a straight question, you ought to be able to expect a straight answer - unless of course you are in politics.

I apologize if my original post was a little obtuse (!!) on any of these issues.

Im glad I could amuse you Xeph. I will try to keep it up!

Good day to all of you

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

I also feel defensive about resorting to an ecollar. All the "purely positive" trainers go around claiming you can train any dog to have a 100% reliable recall if only you work at it. Well, I couldn't achieve this goal no matter how hard I worked at it. Then I investigated further-- and it seems most of the people making this claim own particular breeds, certain herding breeds to be exact. You talk to hound owners, bird dog owners, terrier owners, they laugh in your face if you tell them they can train their dog to recall off a rabbit scent with purely positive methods.  And don't just resort to "well use a leash". Dogs can and do break leashes and slip collars and jump fences, and you may need a reliable recall.

The most important thing you can teach your dog is to come when called, every time, no matter what.  I do think "casual dog owners" may want to investigate how to use a "pet pager" to help them train a good recall. I'm not sure why we just assume dogs find the electronic tickle to be more irritating than an annoying overt vibration or annoying loud beeping noise right next to their oh-so-sensitive ears, but so be it, let's assume that (I have two dogs that both obviously find the "warning beep" of my collars to be highly aversive, much more so than the working level electronic stim).

I own herding dogs, but FYI, I also own a very large rescued hound, just for the record, and have worked with all the breeds you mention. []  Also, not all herding dogs can be easily dissuaded from chasing small prey that runs.  My hound does have a great recall - I never just assumed that he wouldn't.  He's really a brilliant dog, despite the obvious independent streak.  But, that isn't even the point.  The point is that before anyone resorts to a coercive method, I like to be very sure that they have correctly employed positive techniques, or whatever techniques they are using, properly.  I am not saying that one should never resort to prongs, or to e-collars, or to punishment for that matter.  All I want people to know is that if you do so injudiciously, you could ruin your dog.  So, if you are not absolutely positive that you understand each method, and how to use it, better to get a professional to help you than to simply go off trying a lot of stuff that may well do harm to your dog.  I think we are sometimes far too casual here about recommending e-collars, just to throw the monkey wrench at the +R people.  I know people who can't figure out how to get their dogs to "sit", but they want me to show them how to use an e-collar.  Ain't gonna happen.  But, if someone has been working with an extremely difficult dog and I fear for its safety, I might opt to teach them if their general understanding of training and behavior principles is good. Otherwise, I'd suggest a trainer to them who could work with the dog directly.
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I feel the need to chime in here, owning two very independent hounds and nary an e-collar.  While I believe that there is a time and a place and yes, a trainer, for every tool out there, I do not believe it behooves me to utilize an e-collar (tickle or nor tickle) for the purpose of "reaching out and touching" either of my dogs. 

I have pretty good recall on both of my dogs- 70% or so on most days.  I work pretty hard on recall but since the two of them are not allowed off lead (with the exception of enclosed dog runs and lure coursing events) 100% recall is not an issue with me.  If it were, then I'd probably concentrate on clicker training. 

I don't know about 99% of the dogs out there, but if mine were to wear an e-collar they'd absolutely KNOW that it was me with the switch.  My dogs do solve problems and think independently and the trust I've built with them is not something I take for granted.  Besides, I went into this with the attitude that these dogs have formed partnerships with their humans for thousands of years, not that I would be the one they look to in order to figure out their next move.   When I need them to work they will work for me, not because of a tickle but because of a trust.

JMO, flame away.

I concur that I'd never recommend an e-collar to a novice handler who intended to only read books, check online forums, or watch videos to train their dog.   IMO, it's definitely a tool that requires professional implementation and interpretation for your dog and your situation.
 
Fred Hassen's sentiment of "directive" versus "corrective" seems to say it well enough for me.  My dog is not punished with the e-collar.  She enjoys extraordinary freedoms, an incredible recall, and shining real-world and competitive performances because of her great attitude and our working relationship, not just the tools I use. 

Some of this thread seems to have taken on the tone of a 4th grade class at recess, where some kids start making fun of the smartest kid in the class.  Just MHO.  []

I also have wondered about the "100%" claim for ANY behavior. Recall, leave it, whatever. With any training method. Mainly because I work with a woman whose has Shelties and a Tervuren that have been titled in obedience, agility and tracking (Terv). But the sheltie still has a thing for the burn barrel at the back of her farm. He will sneak around when he thinks she doesn't see him and scrounge for bones dug out of the trash by the farm cats. She has trained him to National Specialty levels but for this particular dog, the joy of an ellicit pork chop bone or chicken wing is a higher value reward than anything she has to offer. She can recall him when she sees him by the trash and he will immediatly snatch up his prize and try to wolf it down before he gets to her. Leave it or drop it gets ignored.

I'm sure that part of it is that she didn't put a huge priority on training for thiis particular behavior. She did try for quite some time, but soon realized that this particular dog put a much bigger priority on continuing the behavior than she did on stopping it. She know her normal positive methods weren't working and didn't feel the behavior was worth going to an ecollar for. So they put up a fence.

I don't know about 99% of the dogs out there, but if mine were to wear an e-collar they'd absolutely KNOW that it was me with the switch. My dogs do solve problems and think independently and the trust I've built with them is not something I take for granted. Besides, I went into this with the attitude that these dogs have formed partnerships with their humans for thousands of years, not that I would be the one they look to in order to figure out their next move. When I need them to work they will work for me, not because of a tickle but because of a trust

 
why are you assuming an ecollar will destroy trust? You don't use them to punish-- you use them to communicate. They are very similar to a clicker. The clicker marks when the dog is right; the stim marks when the dog is wrong, and goes off the instant the dog is right. I'm sure the dog knows the stim comes from the handler, that doesn't matter. 
I have an extremely soft dog, who cringes if you glare at her. She LOVES her ecollar-- she goes nuts with excitement when I get it out, because to her it represents freedom and fun training games out in the woods.
 
ecollars get a bad rap from their use in "aversion" training-- where you hit the dog with a massive shock a few times in order to permanently STOP a dog from doing a particular behavior. That's not training and is never justified.
 
Some of the newer models on the market couldn't even be used in aversion training-- the setting doesn't go up high enough.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

I don't know about 99% of the dogs out there, but if mine were to wear an e-collar they'd absolutely KNOW that it was me with the switch. My dogs do solve problems and think independently and the trust I've built with them is not something I take for granted. Besides, I went into this with the attitude that these dogs have formed partnerships with their humans for thousands of years, not that I would be the one they look to in order to figure out their next move. When I need them to work they will work for me, not because of a tickle but because of a trust

why are you assuming an ecollar will destroy trust? You don't use them to punish-- you use them to communicate. They are very similar to a clicker. The clicker marks when the dog is right; the stim marks when the dog is wrong, and goes off the instant the dog is right. I'm sure the dog knows the stim comes from the handler, that doesn't matter. 
I have an extremely soft dog, who cringes if you glare at her. She LOVES her ecollar-- she goes nuts with excitement when I get it out, because to her it represents freedom and fun training games out in the woods.

ecollars get a bad rap from their use in "aversion" training-- where you hit the dog with a massive shock a few times in order to permanently STOP a dog from doing a particular behavior. That's not training and is never justified.

Some of the newer models on the market couldn't even be used in aversion training-- the setting doesn't go up high enough.

I'm not saying it will destroy trust in all situations, but in my particular situation I feel it will.  The Kelb-tal-fenek (pharaoh hound) has [linkhttp://www.kelb-tal-fenek.de/rabbithunt.htm]worked [/link]with man on a trust/partnership basis for thousands of years, and continues to do so today- without the aid of an e-collar.  With my particular dogs-they work with me because they want to work with me, not because of a gentle reminder or a remote tickle communicator. 

ORIGINAL: jenhuedepohl

I also have wondered about the "100%" claim for ANY behavior. Recall, leave it, whatever. With any training method. Mainly because I work with a woman whose has Shelties and a Tervuren that have been titled in obedience, agility and tracking (Terv). But the sheltie still has a thing for the burn barrel at the back of her farm. He will sneak around when he thinks she doesn't see him and scrounge for bones dug out of the trash by the farm cats. She has trained him to National Specialty levels but for this particular dog, the joy of an ellicit pork chop bone or chicken wing is a higher value reward than anything she has to offer. She can recall him when she sees him by the trash and he will immediatly snatch up his prize and try to wolf it down before he gets to her. Leave it or drop it gets ignored.

I'm sure that part of it is that she didn't put a huge priority on training for thiis particular behavior. She did try for quite some time, but soon realized that this particular dog put a much bigger priority on continuing the behavior than she did on stopping it. She know her normal positive methods weren't working and didn't feel the behavior was worth going to an ecollar for. So they put up a fence.

You are quite correct.  Dogs are sentient beings, just like us, and just like us they make occasional mistakes.  The purpose of training is to minimize the amount of mistakes that they, or we, make.  

Deleted, because I didn't realize this thread was so old or my post was so OT until I read it, again.

PetSafe just shocked us with a REALLY compassionate deed. We filled out a donation request form, and they'd already depleted their yearly outreach funds, but someone actually read our group's description and was "deeply touched" by kids trying to help all pets through rehabilitating bad rep dogs and placing them as well behaved companions. He sent us a wireless fence (~ $260 value) and a yard and park remote trainer (almost $200, I think - not sure). True, I like Dogtra's patented 0-100 stimulation feature but think PetSafe is a really awesome corporation now!

Anyway, shock collars should only be used by people who know how to. Timing, for example, should be perfect. The stimulation level should also be perfect. I extensively practised using my Dogtra collar on myself before ever pressing the button on my dog. I wore it (yes, on my neck - you'll find you need a lower stimulation level than on your arm!) and adjusted the shock to where I thought my dog would feel it but not be made uncomfortable (ie: feels lower than carpet static). I also practised my timing on myself.

My dog understood all commands and had been taught with toys (no treats or punishment) before I used the collar. He never once freaked out or showed signs of stress. I like the collar because it doesn't injure the dog, no yanking involved (my weight in lbs is still 2 digits long), and is great for off leash reliability. But it is EXTREMELY easy to misuse.

BTW, I'm not a masochist, but I believe that I shouldn't do anything to my dogs that I wouldn't happily do to myself (kind of like as a coxswain working out with my rower teammates). Please try a shock for yourself, all the way from 0-100, before you determine that it is cruel or humane.