electronic collars

I'm sorry, but most people's perceptions of ecollars and how they should be used are just incorrect. When used properly, all your dog feels is an intrusive tickle at his neck. Try them on yourself-- irritating tickle on the skin. They aren't painful. They work mostly because they are right there on the dog and very difficult for the distracted dog to ignore, and allow the trainer to use precise timing in informing the dog of correct/wrong behaviors. They are supposed to be used to communicate to the dog, much as a clicker does, and as a way to RE-FOCUS the dog, not as punishment, and not as a primary training method, either.
Example of proper use of ecollar: ten-month old dog has good obedience skills, and has worked for several months on recalls on a long line. He is carefully taught over three or four weeks that if he feels the ecollar stim, he can quickly turn it off by obeying the trainer's command. He knows what to do when he feels that tickle.
Dog is set loose in a big, safe, field to practice his off-leash recalls. Dog is doing well until dog picks up some good scents and forgets trainer exists. Trainer calls dogs name, immediately followed by a stim and a recall command. The stim is very intrusive-- it's right there, dog can't ignore (dog can easily ignore his name being called), so dog re-focuses on trainer, stim is turned off to inform dog he did it right, and dog comes in for his reward. There is not much difference between this training method and using a gentle tug on a long-line to re-focus the dog-- except the long line is now electronic. Many a dog has learned to only obey when the long line is present; now, you can use the ecollar to transition the dog off the long line and get true off-leash obedience.
 
Improper use of ecollar: dog has a habit of ignoring owner and just running wildly off instead of coming when called. Owner hasn't bothered with working on a long line. Owner slaps ecollar on dog. Sets dog loose in field. Owner calls dog, dog ignores, owner hits dog with high-level stim. There is little difference between this "training" method and someone hooking a long line to a prong or choke, and when dog ignores the recall, delivering a very harsh "correction" and dragging the dog to the owner. Cruel, not very effective.
 
 
It's not the tool, folks. It's all in how you use it. If you beat your dog with a full bait-bag, it doesn't mean that treats are a cruel method of training- it means the trainer is doing it wrong.

I agree with you, Mudpuppy.
 
And, as someone else has said, "It's not the equipment, it's the attitude." Proper education and use, in a non-abusive way accomplish the objective.
 
If I gave treats to my dog every time he was afraid or upset, I would be rewarding that behavior and wind up with a very reactionary dog. That wouldn't mean treats are bad but that my use of them was wrong. Instead, I give treats for proper obedience.
 
Other times, he will try to detect if I have a treat before he wants to listen. So, for the nonce, he sometimes does it for treats, sometimes he obeys without treats, and other times, the treats are ineffective.
 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. You can mess up a dog using ANY method improperly. I guess a lot of people are under the impression that an e-collar is like the ones that inmates of futuristic prisons in sci-fi films wear, "cross the line and your head will get blown off". Like ANY other training tool, the person using it has to know what they are doing. Personally I've never used it on any of my dogs, simply because I haven't had the need, that is not to say that if the situation called for it I would dismiss it immediately. "Somewhere" I read an article about a clicker trainer that conditioned his/her dog so that the "page" feature of the collar was the reward (where I read it and whether or not it's true I have no idea). My point being, that ignorance is what will mess up a dog, not the tool itself. Granted, there are some tools that have more myths built around them thus making them more suceptible (it's that how it's spelled?) to erroneous use.

There's always the "if you had..." factor, but the truth is, in somecases we just flat out didn't: start training early enough, use the proper method, socialize enough, realize our trainer was incompetent fast enough. So having something to "fix" is a pretty common thing. Hopefully next time around we'll know, but I'm pretty sure that we'll still miss something, at least those of us who are not pros at this.

I recently heard a lengthy description of a study on e-collars (originally written in German which is why I haven't read the original). Anyway, the upshot is that they can be used in a way that does not increase stress levels too much, and where the stress levels of the dog go back to normal after removal of the collar. But there are many more ways that totally make a dog's stress go through the roof and it does not come back down after the collar has been taken off, not even after a couple weeks go by. By far the most stress was caused by the condition that was meant to simulate what a regular dog owner does with one of these things, just kind of shocking randomly (sometimes for doing something wrong, sometimes for not responding fast enough to a command).

I'm not going to flat out say that they should never ever be used, but there's a couple right ways to use them and about a million wrong way,s and that makes them dangerous in the hands of John. Q Dogowner.

Did anyone see the America's Funniest Home Videos (okay, um, after you read this please forget I ever admitted to watching that show) where some teenagers decided to film one of them wearing their dog's shock collar? They started at the lowest setting and by the time they go to the mid-range the kid was pretty much drooling on himself. At the highest settings he screamed. Clearly this is not a tool to be used by people who don't know what they're doing.

If all you need is an "unobtrusive tickle", it seems to me that you could as easily use a vibrating collar, as are used to train deaf dogs.  But, in the hands of JQP, the likelier scenario is that the dog, who was never properly trained to the recall, gets a tickle for not coming.  Then, when the dog doesn't come (again, because he has no idea that "come" isn't optional), the owner turns up the tickle to a jolt.
Personally, I have no problem with a seasoned trainer using a piece of equipment, but usually it's the seasoned trainer who doesn't need it anywhere near as often.
This is not an item for the casual dog owner to train a recall with. 

for the lurkers, GSD's are notorious for fence-running, fence-fighting, etc., so personally, I would not enclose one in fencing that they can see out of if they show this tendency.  It is "practicing" this behavior that reinforces it.

 
You're right, but you're also assuming my dog fence runs...which he doesn't.  And I prefer fencing they can see out of simply because I've met many a neurotic dog who acts insane in the backyard because it can't see what's going on.
 
I've done heavy duty training with him since I got him at 8 weeks.  You can boundary train all you want, but the dog will never be 100%.  And I don't THINK it saved my dog, I KNOW it did.  But hey, whatever, my dog isn't boundary trained.\
 
I don't rely on the e-collar to solve all my problems, I'm using it to solve this one particular problem.  I can click him all I want from looking at me when another dog is running agility, and in that case it was successful, but a bunny is more interesting than me, and I can't make a bunny stop running like other handlers can make their dog stop.  Prey drive's a biznatch.

Xeph, you always seem to want to be so defensive.... personally, I'm glad that my dogs don't jump fences, and will "leave it" and "come" away from bunnies, cats, other dogs, and stuff in general.  And, they don't come any drivier than my Aussie.  If I could do that without ever resorting to an e-collar, you probably could have as well.  But, you probably never will, because you don't seem as though you are even open to the possibility. 

Maybe I'm defensive because people insinuate if you use an e-collar you're using a crutch, or your dog isn't trained.  Sorry, but after nearly a year of trying to do things positively and getting no response, I did what I felt was best for my dog, and I feel more than secure with that decision.  I can't have him on a long line his entire life so he won't chase a rabbit.

I am sure the vast majority of well-trained and experienced dog trainers and animal behaviorists will agree with you Xeph. There is nothing to be gained by pontificating about other people's training methods, particularly in cases like these where there is no scientific data to validate the superiority of an 'exclusively-clicker' approach (the scant data would, if anything, point towards a valid field of use for e-collars). Personal morals, anthropomorphizing, or misconceived notions of a method do not make for valid arguments. While I always train positive if at all possible, there are some dogs and some circumstances where an ecollar can be helpful. It should be self-evident that this is a tool to be used only with extreme care and only after having been taught extensively by a professional how and when to apply it properly.

To get back to the original question: the Dogtra 1700NCP is a top collar for a moderate price.

Have a great day

Btw, nice name for your dog there!

I just have to say that I find the word "pontificate" to be highly amusing.  Don't know why, just do xD

ORIGINAL: polymatheia

I am sure the vast majority of well-trained and experienced dog trainers and animal behaviorists will agree with you Xeph. There is nothing to be gained by pontificating about other people's training methods, particularly in cases like these where there is no scientific data to validate the superiority of an 'exclusively-clicker' approach (the scant data would, if anything, point towards a valid field of use for e-collars). Personal morals, anthropomorphizing, or misconceived notions of a method do not make for valid arguments. While I always train positive if at all possible, there are some dogs and some circumstances where an ecollar can be helpful. It should be self-evident that this is a tool to be used only with extreme care and only after having been taught extensively by a professional how and when to apply it properly.

To get back to the original question: the Dogtra 1700NCP is a top collar for a moderate price.

Have a great day

Btw, nice name for your dog there!

Which means that you are throwing some undeserved mud at me, right?  Apparently, I am ill trained and don't know my butt from a shoelace.  I NEVER said that e-collars were a crutch, although they certainly are for some people.  And, if someone tries positive techniques for a year that do not work, my FIRST question is usually to find out if they employed the method correctly.  If that is the case, and it often isn't, then I am open to other methods.  But, this is an Internet forum where you would think that experienced and well trained instructors and behaviorists would not offer the e-collar to anyone without personally assessing their situation.  And, they would most assuredly not "pontificate" about it being so useful if they thought that a newbie might use it inappropriately and do serious damage to their dog.  But, then, you know that.

Xeph, I find the word "pontificate" amusing, too.  I also find the word "obtuse" to be absolutely hysterical.  Don't know why either. 

I agree with mudpuppy. I did read (and have had several eople including trainers tell me) that it is usually used for proofing and not for negative reinforcement or punishment. It is supposed to be used to re-direct the dog's attention back to the handler and is used on dogs who are not responsive to any other attention re-directing method. Most trainers test the equipment on themselves first before using it on any dog, and it does feel like a tickle. Someone told me the highest setting felt like a slightly uncomfortable tingling.

I also feel defensive about resorting to an ecollar. All the "purely positive" trainers go around claiming you can train any dog to have a 100% reliable recall if only you work at it. Well, I couldn't achieve this goal no matter how hard I worked at it. Then I investigated further-- and it seems most of the people making this claim own particular breeds, certain herding breeds to be exact. You talk to hound owners, bird dog owners, terrier owners, they laugh in your face if you tell them they can train their dog to recall off a rabbit scent with purely positive methods.  And don't just resort to "well use a leash". Dogs can and do break leashes and slip collars and jump fences, and you may need a reliable recall.
 
The most important thing you can teach your dog is to come when called, every time, no matter what.  I do think "casual dog owners" may want to investigate how to use a "pet pager" to help them train a good recall. I'm not sure why we just assume dogs find the electronic tickle to be more irritating than an annoying overt vibration or annoying loud beeping noise right next to their oh-so-sensitive ears, but so be it, let's assume that (I have two dogs that both obviously find the "warning beep" of my collars to be highly aversive, much more so than the working level electronic stim).

You should know that the old european equipment was not adjustable. One setting, fricasee.
 
American equipment has variable stim and audible tone preceding the stim. Eventually, you can just use the tone. Always reward successful completion of a task, such as recall and then, at some time, you won't need the collar for short range (voice audible) recall.
 
Then, there's Glenda, who used nothing more than drag lines and also went through formal training with every dog, if nothing else, than to refresh her memory and reward timing.
 

ORIGINAL: Xeph

Maybe I'm defensive because people insinuate if you use an e-collar you're using a crutch, or your dog isn't trained.  Sorry, but after nearly a year of trying to do things positively and getting no response, I did what I felt was best for my dog, and I feel more than secure with that decision.  I can't have him on a long line his entire life so he won't chase a rabbit.

I'm with Xeph and Mudpuppy on this one. Every time the prong collar/e-collar/etc discussion comes up it almost feels like starting a good vs. evil debate. Sure we all have seen the demo dogs of 100% purely possitive trainers and they are nothing short of impressive, and even the dogs of some non-pro trainers are that way too. What I've never heard is a +R devotee flat out admit a particular situation where their usual methods didn't work, at best we hear things like "in some cases..", well, some of us are "some cases". Not all of us are pros, sure, there's a ton of books and material we can all read to bring us up to speed, but I'm guessing most of us are interested in fixing whatever particular problems we have, not becoming experts or even fully competent in operant conditioning etc., and that doesn't make us bad dog owners, which I know is not what has been said here, but is the undertone some of us get.