Nutritional Balance; Small vs. Large Companies

Because I have never heard of any nutritionists being employed there.  Most nutritionists don't even know the companies exist...they also don't say they have nutritionists with them, and you would think they would advertise that. 

Eagle Pack does have a veterinarian on staff; this is from a page on their website in which IBD is discussed;
 
        " Approaches are provided as a guideline in working with your vet. Research and recommendations are documented for veterinarian review. Your vet is also encouraged to discuss any questions with our Director Of Nutritional Services or our Staff Veterinarian"
 
 John Marsman is their nutritionist; I assume he has a degree in animal nutrition but there isn't a Dr. in front of his name so he doesn't have a PHD.

I just emailed Natura about this... I'll let you know what they say when I get a response.

I just emailed Natura about this... I'll let you know what they say when I get a response

 
That's a good idea; I can contact some of these companies too. By the way, although they are smaller than Purina, Science Diet and other large companies they aren't Mom and Pop operations and are large enough to afford to have veterinarians and nutritionists on their staff IMO; their products are distributed in several states and in some cases internationally. For example Natura, who makes Innova, makes several products including EVO, California Natural, Healthwise, Mother Nature, and Karma Organic including puppy and adult food for each product; Eagle Pack Holistic makes 13 formulas and also makes the Prism line which has 5 formulas as well as the Hy-Ration Line.

I don't. Someone else asked the question and my original response was kind of in support of companies that may not have a vet or nutritionist on staff. My other post was about my preference.

Can I be trusted to supply my kids with a "balanced" diet? Do I have the expertise that I need? Or should I switch them over to Carnation Instant Breakfast bars and beverages, which are nutrionally complete as certified by hospital dietary experts? Is my kids' nutrition as important as my dogs'?

 
If you read my original response, you will see that I proposed that some of these companies could be comparable to homecooked feeders and raw, people who do take the responsibility for their pets' nutrition. My other post was what my preference was.
 
When I was a kid, my mother and grandmother loved to cook brussel sprouts. I hated brussel sprouts. But to backtalk would have earned me a smack across the face. So, aside from my case, your kids can talk back and tell you how they are feeling or what tastes good and you can balance whatever.
 
Dogs can't tell you, "Man, there's a bit of tanginess to the menadione. Just toss me a carrot, instead."
 
There are people who do study human nutrition. Some of them work for school districts and it is on them to provide nutritional basics. Human systems have a wider lattitude and some ways of adjust that dogs don't. Dogs have different GITs to some extent, and certainly different nutritional needs.
 

ORIGINAL: jessies_mom

And I agree with you, Papillon. I would perfer a food supervised by a vet or nutritionist but I'm not everyone

How do you know companies like Innova, Canidae, and Natural Balance don't have nutritionists supervising the production of their food?

ORIGINAL: papillon806

Because I have never heard of any nutritionists being employed there.  Most nutritionists don't even know the companies exist...they also don't say they have nutritionists with them, and you would think they would advertise that. 

I have e-mailed Natura regarding an ingredient in their product line and received a reply from customer service with a letter from their nutritionist attached to the e-mail.

According to this website, Dr. Wendell Belfield works closely with Natura in develping their pet food. Website is athttp://www.belfield.com/home.html

From Natura's website ([linkhttp://www.naturapet.com/display.php?d=about-natura]http://www.naturapet.com/display.php?d=about-natura[/link]) -

Natura Pet Products was founded in 1989 by John and Ann Rademakers and Peter Atkins in Santa Clara, California. Dissatisfied with the unhealthy ingredients in the pet foods on the market, they consulted with veterinary nutrition experts to determine the best sources for pet food ingredients. Working with caring pet professionals -veterinarians, breeders and nutritionists, Natura asked one key question: "How do you make the healthiest pet food in the world?"

When I was a kid, my mother and grandmother loved to cook brussel sprouts. I hated brussel sprouts. But to backtalk would have earned me a smack across the face. So, aside from my case, your kids can talk back and tell you how they are feeling or what tastes good and you can balance whatever.

Not my babies.  Do babies have more nutritional lattitude (there is "slackness" or "inferior nutrition" implied here, even if you didn't intend it)?  They are finding things in mother's milk all the time that the formula companies didn't realize were essential for development and health.  Nestle, with zillions of highly paid nutritional specialists, for instance.

I just don't understand why I need [now I can't settle for any less than several] high paid nutritionists to feed my dogs, but it's ok to make choices to feed my kids whole foods and carefully chosen holistic processed foods.

What does taste have to do with it?  High fructose corn syrup tastes great - my dogs would choose it over meat every time.  I spent half the day yesterday trying to convince my new puppy not to eat the carpet where I spilled some honey.  Does that mean carpet is better for him than the ox tail he was supposed to be chewing on?

I really guess I'm with Glenda - I've got trust issues, especially when the people who make Fill-in-the-Blank Chow and Beneful tell me their foods are best, and I get 100% better results from a multitude of holistic food sources.

I am NOT NOT NOT belittling anyone else's food choices.   I don't do that - I don't ever run down another food to forward my own choices.

I just am defending mine because I am feeling just a teeny, teeny bit defensive  [] (because, what's the point of this thread and the other similiar one?).  I really, really, really, really depend on my dogs, and depend on their being at the top of their game every day.  I think about what will keep them there all the time, do lots of reading, consult vets - I'm not lucky enough to have access to a high dollar nutritional specialist, but I have friends who have PhDs in biology (including chemical microbiology), not to mention DVMs.  I can read and understand a study "in the raw."

Here's how I feel, from my experience raising and feeding five or six different species in addition to my dogs.  I don't need a nutritionist to feed my sheep grass, my ducks bugs and weeds, or my dogs and kids whole food appropriate to their needs.  A dog food company needs a nutritionist, a vet, and probably a chemical microbiologist to ensure that the transformation of whole foods into packaged products, results in something as close as possible to whole foods.  A publically owned dog food company that has stockholders to make happy, will employ an entire department of same, to research the balance between "cheap" and "nutrionally complete".  I'm glad they do.  I don't say any particular way is better than another (which I'm assuming is the point of this thread and the other similiar one - finding ways that the big guys are superior to the privately owned holistic producers).

they also don't say they have nutritionists with them, and you would think they would advertise that. 

Natural Balance says on their web site:

The expertise we have gained working with the nutritionists at Zoos nationally on our Zoological Formulas for Carnivores has been applied to our RAW Canine Diets and carry our "Zoo Quality"[size="1"]TM Seal. Our entire line of foods has always been based on the same high standards and scientific principles.

And

[/size]Natural Balance[size="1"]® was built on the premise of helping animals, and we have never nor would we ever allow any testing that would be considered harmful to an animal. We do not conduct laboratory testing on animals, whatsoever. All of our feeding trials are conducted in the animal's own environment, in conjunction with veterinarians, kennels, breeders and pet owners, to ensure that all Natural Balance® products are extremely palatable, nutritious and the best possible formulation for the health of your pet. Our feeding trials are a positive experience and enjoyable for animals!

[/size]

Actually, I don't trust any of them.  I see an ad on TV for laundry detergent and it gets a horribly stained white shirt (catsup, wine, grass, blood, ink, spaghettis suace, etc) as white as the day it was bought.  Shows the before and after on TV.  I got buy that detergent and it won't even take out water stains!  Dish detergent-- it removes tough baked on crud and you don't even have to scrub, just wipe with sponge. And I buy it and it takes 3 boxes of brillo pads to get the baked on lasagna off. 
 
Well, I take all "our food is 100% balanced, it is the one most recommened by vets, it makes your dog live 2 years longer, etc, etc" with a grain of salt.  All can't be the best.  All can't be the worst.  I just know my dogs do great on the combo of Purina and home made that I feed them and I am not going to mess around trying to figure out something new.  And to be on the safe side, they each get a doggie multi-vitamin, fish oil and EsterC each day.  And even so i don't know that these sups do the job advertised, altho I do know the Gluco/MSM helps Bucks arthrtis, so hopefully sups are doing as they are suppose to.

I don't say any particular way is better than another (which I'm assuming is the point of this thread and the other similiar one - finding ways that the big guys are superior to the privately owned holistic producers).

 
  I'm sorry you're feeling defensive about what you feed your dog; that wasn't my intention; this thread is about the ability of small companies to produce a food as nutritionally well balanced as the large companies, not about those who feed raw or homecook. I'm the one who started this thread and I have been feeding Jessie a product made by a holistic company for about 16 months; I also supplement her diet with raw and cooked food and I'm definitely not trying to pick on the small companies.  In another thread several weeks ago Papillon, who is a graduate student studying animal nutrition , said that her research group, which has been analyzing formulas of several holistic companies, found that some of them had failed to take into account the interaction of nutritional components of the ingredients they used and as a result had excesses of some nutrients in their foods, potentially greater than what the FDA considers to be safe. I started this thread to see how members felt about the ability of small companies to balance their formulas as well as large companies, nothing more. If I listen to my dog, the food she's eating is perfect; she's eight years old and because of her size is considered a senior dog but she is very active, feels great and has a very shiny coat. I guess the old rule applies here, " feed what works best for your dog." 

dog food company needs a nutritionist, a vet, and probably a chemical microbiologist to ensure that the transformation of whole foods into packaged products, results in something as close as possible to whole foods

 
Do they, really? My original point, which I guess you don't care to acknowledge is that some of these companies that don't have an "ON-STAFF" vet or nutritionist may be comparable to homecookers. I did not say that homecookers did not consult a nutrionist or that the other food companies did not consult a nutritionist. But even if they didn't, they would not be theoretically any worse than homecookers who do not consult a nutrionist, though maybe more liable since their food is for sale on the market. That is, my first post could have been considered in agreement with you and I certainly would not imply that you need a nutritionist to feed your children, although the school districts usually emply one.
 
My other post was to say that my preference in feeding my dog is to feed a food that is overseen by a vet or nutritionist, and has nothing to do with you or your kids.
 
Perhaps you have something against me. That whatever I post is going to be wrong, even if I'm trying to support you or the small companies that can only afford a consultation rather than a full-time salaried professional.
 

ORIGINAL: brookcove

I just am defending mine because I am feeling just a teeny, teeny bit defensive [] (because, what's the point of this thread and the other similiar one?).

I'm not exactly sure what you're implying here and I may be taking it completely wrong, but since I'm now feeling a little defensive for starting the other thread...

It certainly was not intended to attack anyone or to ask them to defend or justify their choices. I personally have strong misgivings about one particular holistic company, I had an unsettling experience with another, and I've seen reports of inconsistent batches from yet another. I simply wanted to get other people's opinions on quality control at the larger and smaller companies.

Judging from what Papillon has found in her studies, the bigger companies are providing a better balance but, IMO, not for the reason you think. That is, I'm not the vanguard for the major brands. But they have the money to hire scientists, vets, nutritionists. Cost effective or not, their aim is to provide a balanced meal for you pet at a managable unit price.
 
A smaller food company, appealing to humans with certain philosophies, may not be providing balance because that is not the aim of their food. They make food that fits in your lifestyle, historical opinion, paradigm, politics,  whathaveyou. It is still advertising and it is still all for your dollar. Sometimes, they will express that their food is not balanced and should not be the sole source of food for your pet. Other ingredients and supps will be necessary. But their food is just as much about image as anything that the majors are accused of. As a few of the farm girls here have pointed out, before the advent of kibble, dogs were fed whatever. Table scraps, gumbo for dogs, or they ran and free-hunted. Was any of that balanced? I doubt. Some lived a long time and some didn't. And now we have balanced kibble and some live a long time and some don't.
 

 I remember my aunt's dog; his name was Spot and he was fed table scraps and bones and little if any dog food; this was back in the 50's. He used to chase every car that went by their house and was still chasing them at 12 years old. It will be interesting to see the results when Papillon's group is finished, not just because they are analyzing formulas from some holistic companies but from some large companies as well. About the only food made by a large company that I can be certain doesn't have chicken is what you feed Shadow; Eukanuba " Natural "Lamb and Rice has "natural chicken flavor" and Pro Plan Sensitive Systems has animal digest; both ingredients could potentially cause a problem and with a dog who's immune system is under a lot of stress from environmental allergens. I don't want to expose her to even a small amount of chicken in her food; it's all about keeping her allergen load below her threshold. You don't realize how prevalent chicken is in the foods made by the large companies until you have to avoid it. In spite of what some have said about trusting the companies that make dog food I'm not that cynical; I think there are companies that do care about keeping dogs healthy and not just about making money; if you've ever spoken with John Marsman you certainly get the impression that he is genuinely concerned about your dog. I think the nutritionists at the large companies really care too. As far as the ability of small companies to make a well balanced kibble we haven't seen the results of Papillon's study yet and many of the small companies may make an excellent product judging from the results most of us get from using them.