Raw diet

they use apples, potatoes and tomatoes as well as meat?
and from what little i've read of California Natural, its got rice and other grains in it, so it wouldnt be that much of a switch, and probably cost the same as feeding either raw or evo.. but evo is already prepared for me? or do i have that wrong?

 
Evo is a high protein kibbled dog food. I tried Shadow on Innova Large Breed once and it didn't agree with him. He presented allergy symptoms for two weeks. I put him back on Nutro Natural Choice Large Breed Lamb Meal and Rice and the symptoms went away. I don't know if he was allergic to the Barley or the other vegetable ingredients in it or if it was just too much for his system. With his metabolism, the simpler the food, the better. So, his food is one meat source, one grain, supps, and that's it. The Siberian Husky metabolism evolved to extract every possible erg of energy of very little, simple food. And still pull at least 4 times their own body weight at - 70 F. So, I've considered that perhaps the Innova was too rich for him.
 
But many here have had good experience with Innova regular  and Evo.
 

DumDog

is it possible to over worm, like over vaccinating?  

Yes, I would say that it is possible to over worm, because chemical de-wormers are pesticides put into the digestive tract.  It is not quite like over vaccinating because you are not challenging the immune system with a disease, but you are challenging the kidney and liver to eliminate the toxins from the bloodstream.
 
One can de-worm with non-toxic Diatomaceous earth (DE), but I wouldn't want to do that too often either. 
 
Assuming that you are just dealing with fleas, birds, rodents, and rabbits, you might use DE every other month.  Then alternate Safe-Guard (very gentle) and D-Worm in the other months.
 
Human infection with hydatid tapeworms (Echinococcus species) is very serious.  Those are nasty critters.  Parasitic cystic tumors may develop in the brain, heart, lungs, and liver.  If one of them ruptures, ...  In areas with these tapeworms, I might skip the Safe-Guard and alternate monthly between DE and D-Worm.  

Humans become accidentally infected by ingesting food items contaminated with the eggs of Echinococcus. This can occur through eating contaminated vegetation such as nuts, berries, and herbs. Hands could become contaminated by gardening or otherwise working in soil contaminated with dog, cat, fox, or other canid ***. Be sure to wash all fruits and vegetables and wash hands thoroughly with soap and water as well. 

jenns

If this evolution did take place, you would see a shorter digestive tract, shorter canine teeth and flat back teeth made for griding. Hasn't happened.  

Don't you mean a "longer" digestive tract?

DumDog

by the way, i found some pamphlets outside on the grill for Evo and California Natural...  

California Natural, Innova, and EVO are three of the lines of super premium treats/kibbles/canned food made by Natura. 
http://www.naturapet.com 
 
The California Natural line of hypoallergenic food has minimal ingredients and are "ideal for pets when food sensitivity may be a problem".
 
The EVO line is grain-free, human-grade food for dogs, cats, and ferrets.
 
The Innova line is holistic food for dogs and cats.
 
I would never take a dog directly from another company's food directly to EVO.  In my opinion that is too big a jump.  I would transition the dog to Innova for 6 months and then try EVO.

ORIGINAL: DumDog  how much do you spend a month buying raw food for your large breed dogs?
i mean JUST meat and bones with maybe an egg or two. need an answer quick.
i'm discussing it with my husband. apparently he asked a vet today about it who told him that dogs are no longer wolves and have evolved into omnivores and cant handle raw meat - therefore the dog food diet MUST stay - so i need some proof of otherwise...

 
I would suggest if you're hesitant about this vet maybe seek a second opinion?  What is the dog food diet that must stay if you don't mind me asking and is it sold at the Vets office?
 
I spend about $22 a month to feed my dogs like carnivores (combined dog weight 48-50 lbs).  Your Vet would not like me I don't think.
 
 
 

Definitely keep up on the worming, but one thing to remember is that you're the one handling the meat. Are you wormed?

I'm not suggesting that you need to worm yourself and other humans, but think about it, if you could get a nasty tapeworm or something from handling meat you're going to give to your dog, then wouldn't you sue the pants off whoever sold you that meat? I looked into this considerably when we started feeding raw because a lot of our pet meat over here is wild caught kangaroo or domestic animals not fit for human consumption. I found laws that stipulate that no mealy or parasite infested meat is to be sold for pet meat. In fact, they toss the whole carcass if it's mealy. The only difference between pet meat and human grade meat that I could find was that discoloured meat could be sold as pet meat. Discolouration as a result of disease renders meat unfit for sale or use as pet meat.

These are the laws for Australia, so I don't know if they're the same over there. However, I figure, they can't really afford to let consumers come into contact with meat that could make them sick.

ORIGINAL: janet_rose

If this evolution did take place, you would see a shorter digestive tract, shorter canine teeth and flat back teeth made for griding. Hasn't happened.

Don't you mean a "longer" digestive tract?

 
Oops!  Yes you're right, good catch.  Will edit my post.

ORIGINAL: tcasby What do champion show and athletic dogs eat?

 
I can answer that: ABADY.

CC431
it wasnt even the vet that suggested it. he just told me he stopped by (to pick up a couple of capstars) and he asked about the raw diet. before he left that morning we were talking about it and he thought it was crazy to feed dogs in that fashion.
when he got home that night and we talked about it again (i'm relentless) he said "the girl behind the counter" ..the receptionist? ..
"i guess so, she worked there"  .. doesnt mean she knows what she's talking about...
then i explained about them probably getting a commission for selling dog food, he said they didnt have any dog food there.. but then i found the brochures (and a pack of cigarettes sitting on top of them, so i know he wasnt hiding them because he never lays his cigs down outside(because i'll hide'm), he just forgot them)

but when i told him that they still get a commission for selling this food he said "no, they didnt have ANY dog food there" (they did last time i went... lots of it, AND snacks) he said you have to call the number on the brochure and order it, theres no way there is a kickback for the vet.
he KNOWS better.... when you order ANYTHING or sign up for something there is USUALLY a little survey asking who referred you ... now with this i dont know because i didnt fill out the form, or visit the website so i'm guessing, but its common with a lot of other things sold through brochures.

funny thing is he doesnt have any intention of ordering either brand.. he just wanted to show me the proof he found according to the vet's office.... i told him it would probably be just as expensive to order that food than to do it ourselves.

anyway...

as for worms in us, the humans, oh i already worry about that lol especially after watching Dr. Oz on Oprah.... because i like my steak medium rare.. but so far my family is healthy looking. my kids still have their baby fat and are active and happy. and we all checked out well at our last doctor's physical. but that doesnt mean much lol you have to er... check certain areas for signs of worms... [] ew!

Ah yes the raw food debate.  Well my girl is on the raw food diet with table scraps.  Every vet that#%92s seen her says she is just beautiful.  I had to keep changing vet#%92s because every time I told them she was on the raw food diet they would lay into me on how I could not possibly get my girl all the nutrients she needed.  This year I found a raw food proponent.  Btw I#%92m a proponent of unprocessed food diets for humans.
Here is a little discussion I had with a Vet:
Vet:  How can you expect to get the correct nutrients to your dog?  The pet food manufacturers have scientists putting together a balanced meal for your dog.
Me:  So what you#%92re telling me is that they can make a “perfect meal” for EVERY breed of dog in one bag?  Can they do that for humans?
Me:  What did dogs eat 60 years ago before dog food?
Vet:  Well dogs are living longer today than they did 60 years ago.
Me:  People are living longer today than 60 years ago as well.  Do you credit the “Big Mac” and “Taco Bell” with that?  And btw did you know they recently “corrected” the “Food Pyramid” for humans.
Vet:  If you#%92ll excuse me I have another appointment…
 
Dog#%92s have been on the raw and table scrap diet since man pulled them from the wild.  Around 10,000 years.  Now that#%92s a tried and true diet!  Remember table scraps means table scraps from the 1800#%92s and before.  No “Big Mac#%92s” and hold the fries please.

I did notice when I stopped feeding Zami canned pumpkin she seemed to have a sudden desire to eat vegetation outside.  She chewed up some edible flowers(forget what they are), grass, and various bushes.  In fact she killed one of the flower plants that are rather large and perennial.  She stopped eating them after they stopped flowering.  I've also seen wild dogs and coyotes eat root vegetables and other vegetation even when they weren't starving.  I don't think dogs, wolves, coyotes, etc.. are 100% carnivorous.  I'm not sure they fall under the definition of omnivores but I question diets of only meat.  Surely some vegetables or fruits is at least not harmful and possibly quite helpful.  Even a true carnivore can extract some vitamins and minerals from vegetation.  Plus most raw diets I've seen mentioned and especially premade freeze dried raw diets still contain some vegetables even if they avoid all grains.
 
For the coat I'd actually look into adding more oils.  A kibble with more calories or nutrients isn't going to help so much as one with more EFAs(essential fatty acids).  These are most easily found in oils from fish, nuts, and seeds.  Sunflower, flaxseed, and salmon oil are some of the best quality and most commonly used.  For dogs salmon oil is most popular probably because it's one of the few oils extracted from a meat source.  You can also get vit e in capsules which helps with heatlhy hair and nails.  Additional vit e and EFAs can help tremendously with dry skin and dull coats for pretty much all mammals.

Hmmmmm, I see my name has been mentioned in vain! []
 
My dogs are fed kibble in the morning.  They just finished the Blue rotation and are back on Innova for now.  Next will be Canidae again.  For dinner they get homecooked with a variety of proteins and I alternate the veggies that  I use as well so that get a huge variety and constant exposure to different vitamins and minerals.  I personally use either fresh or frozen veggies because they are processed so much less and retain more of the good stuff that way.  At least once a week they get raw for dinner.  Since they only get raw once a week, I don't worry about the organ, or the amount (I think they are supposed to get 2-5% of their body weight?) or the bone ratio.  IF I were feeding all raw, then I most assuredly would be concerned about those things.
 
We have (had?) a member who does feed raw and has for years...Laurie....and I believe that her website is rawdogranch.com  I'm hoping that sooner sees this since she always remembers the links and can provide the proper one if I missed.
 
As for ME getting worms?  I handle the raw meat for my families meals so handling it for my dogs is no different.  So long as we all use proper hygience when handling raw meats I think the chances of issues are pretty well nill.

I can't give you actual figures on the cost of feeding a raw diet to your large breed dogs, as my 2 dogs are small.  But from the research I did before I switched them over to a raw food diet, when cost was mentioned, articles stated it costs much less to feed a raw diet, especially if you grind the meat, organ meats and bones yourself.  Of course this would involve having a heavy duty grinder which I don't have.  You can buy preground meat mixtures in bulk, or you can use a food processor or blender to grind the meat, liver and other organs.  You just can't grind the bones, but you could add bone meal.  After my research, I decided to put all the information I learned into a blog, the link for which is at the bottom of my post.  I was researching the raw diet especially for my 9 year old cocker spaniel who has had a skin allergy and been on Prednisone for the past 5 years, and I was concerned about the side affects of the medication long term.  About 3 months ago, I did end up switching her to an all natural dry kibble for 1 meal, and the other meal is a raw meat mixture with raw egg and green vegetables.  She no longer needs her medication, and her coat is shinier and softer than even when she was a puppy.  We adopted a 3 year old Chihuahua about a month ago.  Her coat was course, but in just 3 weeks, it is softer and shinier.  I totally recommend it.  And as for the advice about food from the veterinarian, I'm sure they meant well, but my vet has always recommended Eukanuba and Hills Science Diet.  My research showed they are usually paid by the commercial dog food companies to recommend their products, so I lost faith in their recommendations, especially after the petfood recall.  They would have to take separate nutritional courses in vet school, which most don't take because they already have a full schedule, so they really don't understand nutrition.  That's my take on the whole thing.  Hope it helps you.  Check out my blog for more information on how to switch to a raw food diet.