Raw diet

LOL dogs are domesticated so they have to eat cooked stuff.

 
I don't think anyone said that at all.   I think its a personal choice and that as long as the quality of the food is good (be it kibble, canned, homecooked or raw) that that is what's important.   I think its a personal opinion plus what works best for the individual dog.
As far as cost, I can tell you that when I was homecooking I was spending about $20 a week for a 13.5 lb dog.  Some of that cost was supplements or organ meats and such that obviously would last much longer than the week -- I do admit that I wasn't diligent about looking for meats on sale and I probably could have cut that cost in half if I had a freezer and worked a little harder at finding better prices.  It could have worked out to only a little more (maybe 10 - 20% more ?) of a quality kibble.

apparently he asked a vet today about it who told him that dogs are no longer wolves and have evolved into omnivores and cant handle raw meat - therefore the dog food diet MUST stay

 
I was paraphrasing the quote from the OP (cited above).
 
Paula

ORIGINAL: paulaedwina

LOL dogs are domesticated so they have to eat cooked stuff. Is that why when my ridgebacks kill squirrel and rabbit they present it to me for plucking/skinning, and cooking? And that's why they're sooooo reluctant to eat bloody food.

Hee, I've tried giving Sasha raw human grade chicken, and she sniffs it and walks away.  She's a modern dog.  "Moooom, cook it!"

I do give her raw meaty beef bones once in a while, and she loves them, but it cracks me up that she will have NOTHING to do with raw chicken.

We cooked for our boxer for two years; that was expensive. We fed Innova for 6 years; that was less expensive. Because of our experience cooking for her, she has always gotten table scraps. When we moved, she just seemed like she could not get over it, and we really thought she might just die because of her rapid decline. I happened to meet someone doing all raw, and we switched from primarily kibble to about 1 pound of chicken and lots of table scraps (NO cooked bones). She gets a mixture of other meats based on what's on sale, and if the kids are in a growth spurt, we cook a bit just for her. This is the least expensive thing we've done. I always feel the need to point out that we eat almost zero boxed/prepared foods, so our scraps are pretty high quality with a wide range of oils, veggies, fruits, and very little grain. She is healthy again, and I feel right about what we're doing.

So, cost. I have no idea about the table scraps, but she gets a fair amount. As for the meat, we pay about 1.00 per pound, but we could get the same organic chicken for less if we had the freezer space. We would just drive to the processor to pick up 50 pounds at a time.

thanks for the info, everyone,
Paula, thank you for pointing out the possibility of the dirty dog mouth, i didnt even think about that. will have to take that into consideration and see if i can come up with a solution.

i'm not worried at all about my dogs getting picky over it. we're a family that doesnt waste anything, and my husband will get down right apoplectic if i take the skin off of chicken... but when the recipe calls for boneless/skinless then he cant argue with me.. and the scraps go to the dogs - i do wash the meat before cooking for us, always, i DID learn something from home ec. - and both dogs sit in front of me, stiff as statues with little halos above their heads so he or she will be the first to get the scraps. the cat could care less.... he prefers his chicken on the wing (meaning he tries to catch and kill his own from my mom's yard [:@])

and yeah last night while talking to my husband about his trip to the vet he finally told me it was the girl behind the counter that told him that dogs must have cooked cereal and no raw meat..... which was a revelation.... this was the vet's office that did the acupuncture on Kaydee. he didnt actually talk to vet himself, which means i am very curious about his opinion. he practices holistic and eastern medicine... so i'm dying to know his take on the raw or BARF diet.

and yes my concern is also about parasites. someone else i talked to said they keep up with regular wormings for tapeworms, but they feed raw game.

i think the biggest problem with failure in feeding raw is not giving a good balance. when i first started to consider it(three years ago) i thought "Oh good, just toss them a package of ground round and they're good to go!" but... thankfully i DID research before switching to THAT method when i learned about too much of this and too little of that being deadly.

i know some dogs wont take to it at all. my mom's collie would act interested in the raw chicken but once it was in her dish she would sniff at it, snort on it,then look up at you like "why'd you put THAT in my bowl? Clean it up!"


dont worry, i'm still researching this and reading my findings to my husband. at first he was totally against it for several reasons, effectiveness, health, cost, wasting good food on a new fad, and the tradition he grew up with. his dog was fed kibble, one can of chow, and given raw meaty bones as treats. his dog lived to be 17 which is odd for a 100# german shepherd mix. but Miki had to be PTS for arthritis and hip problems.

so right now there as many pros as there are cons. it seems like either diet would be just fine, its all moderation and no absolutes, just like with human diets.

ron2

Yes, dogs can consume raw meat. So can humans. Sushi restaraunts are still popular. What humans and some dogs can suffer from is parasitic infection from infected meat. Yes, dogs can suffer from pancreatitis. 

In my book arguing
     (1)  that dogs can handle raw meat and
     (2)  that dogs can handle any old bad meat that comes along
are two very different things. 
 
I should have been more specific.  I was arguing that dogs can digest raw meat - not that they (or wolves for that matter) can handle every variety of bad meat.  I have never investigated how often wolves might come down with panceatitis or how often wolves have trouble with bad meat, so I can't compare the two.  I have no reason to believe that wolves don't have the same problems that dogs do.
 
The digestive tract and digestive enzymes of a dog and a wolf are identical.  To my knowledge, no one has documented any differences at all.

ron2

And dogs are omnivores. And so are wolves. Whether they are the same species or not. It's a proven, observable scientific fact that omnivorous behavior exists in both.

I agree that dogs and wolves both eat some vegetable matter.  How well they digest it if someone doesn't cook it for them is questionable. 
 
However, eating a little vegetable matter is a very shaky definition of an "omnivore".  Even an obligate carnivore like a cat will eat a little vegetable matter. 
 
A carnivore has a particular set of anatomical features.  A herbivore has another set of anatomical features.  Different omnivores have various mixtures of those two sets of features.  Bears are anatomical omnivores - molars designed for crushing and grinding, but otherwise the features of a carnivore.
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/2062/ana.HTML 
 
Dogs and wolfs have all the anatomical features of carnivores and none of the features of herbivores.  No grinding molars, no digestive enzymes in the saliva, no sideways jaw motion, no elongated colon, etc.

JoAnnDe

while dogs are decentants of wolves I do believe that enough time has elapsed for dogs to be significantly different from an evolutionary perspective. 

That is true, but the major differences are in behavior and appearance.  Dogs were largely raw fed (by their masters or by their own hunting) up until the 1900's.  If you had told a farmer a hundred years ago (before commercial foods) that he had to cook for his dog, he would have laughed himself silly.  Giving the dog scraps would have been OK, but cooking extra for the dog - no way!

that was one thing my husband and i argued on last night - and why he believed the receptionist -and why i believed it too for a long time.. the teeth... i read a basic dog care book when i was a kid (published by Purina, if that matters) and it stated that one way to tell whether or not a dog is a certain breed is by the teeth. if its a primitive breed it will not have molars like some breeds that have been domesticated longer. So when i pried open my shepherd/Chow/Husky mix's mouth and looked at his teeth.. i saw molars... well.. that was weird... maybe he was more shepherd than chow husky?
this book was published in the 70's.
So anyway, i was a kid when i read that book, and like a kid i believed it... later on, after telling everyone what i read... i had to renounce that and admit i was wrong, and was told wrong, because when i drew a wolf skull i discovered top and bottom molars and premolars....
my husband didnt believe me so i found my coyote skull (i collect skulls) and showed him the teeth, then showed him online a wolf's skull and teeth. not too much of a difference. i told him my only explanation for that is .... wolfs DO chew up and swallow bones..
i am willing to bet that a healthy wolf pack doesnt suffer from ailments associated with bad meat because if its a fresh kill then the whole carcass is consumed within days of it being killed. i dont think there is much time for the meat to spoil.
and besides that, what about dogs and wolves that have a meat cache? my sister's shepherd would bury pieces of meat leftovers to eat another day.

there's still too much in the way of maybe's and mights, so it could be confusing which side to jump to.
the kibble diet is easiest... that i will agree on. how hard is it to dig out six cups of chow (recommended amount for my dogs size and weight) and pour it into a bowl? buying, cleaning, chopping up and weighing raw meat, plus cleaning up afterwards is probably going to be a task. if i had more than just the two dogs i would probably opt for a mixed diet. because i have to prepare food for MY family and put their needs and health first - if i had more than the two it would be more difficult to keep on task all the special requirements for each dog.. but the best way to get around that would be to feed the dogs earlier in the day.. i stay at home with my kids and dogs, so i dont think i really would have a good excuse to feed a mixed diet.... maybe if i was going out of town and leaving my mom to care for them.. but even in that case... freeze each dog's meal and label the package...


anyway i think that's what we're going to do....
now what i need to do is decide how much to feed each dog based on requirements. right now its summer, hot and humid and neither dog is very active as a result.. but after all my research i'm wondering if their food might have something to do with that as well....

i'm kind of excited to make the switch. its something i've been wanting to do for a long time..
just like my kids, i monitor what my dogs eat. if it isnt good enough for me, then it isnt good enough for them. i would never feed them tainted meat... if it smells funny then it gets taken to the bottom of the hill and thrown over the fence for the wild rats to eat. my dogs cant get near it because 1. they dont like going to the bottom of the hill unless they follow me and 2. we have the in ground fence keeping them inside their bounds. the old fence, which is still standing, can be walked through or stepped over by the dogs....

so thanks again for the info, i really appreciate hearing all sides of this debate.
i'm not opposed to kibble or people who feed that, because i have raised many dogs that have lived long and happy lives on just kibble, its just that right now i want to change my dog's diet for several reasons.. #1 being that i think Kaydee needs the extra protein due to her injuries and speed up the healing process. and #2...they both STINK. they have a constant rank dog smell and dull coats. so i would like to see a change in that as well.

I reccommend this book
[linkhttp://www.rawmeatybones.com/]http://www.rawmeatybones.com/[/link]
By Tom Lonsdale he has two.I prefer him over Billinghurst.

DumDog

and yes my concern is also about parasites. someone else i talked to said they keep up with regular wormings for tapeworms, but they feed raw game. 

That is really a good idea.  Keep in mind that
(1) Heartgard Plus will take care of roundworms and hookworms; 
(2) Interceptor will take care of roundworms, hookworms, and whipworms;
(3) Panacur/Safe-Guard will take care of roundworms, hookworms, whipworms, and Taenia species tapeworms;
(4) Droncit/D-Worm(link) (praziquantel) will get Taenia species tapeworms, flea tapeworms, Echinococcus species tapeworms, broad fish tapeworms, and Spirometra mansonoides tapeworms. 
 
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1622&articleid=769
(1) Taenia species tapeworms can be acquired from rodents, rabbits, sheep, goats, cattle, pig, deer, and reindeer. 
(2) Hydatid tapeworms (Echinococcus species) can be acquired from voles, lemmings, shrews, and herbivores such as sheep.
(3) Broad fish tapeworms (Diphyllobothrium latum) can be acquired from copepods (a type of freshwater crustacean), minnows, and larger fish, such as perch, walleye, trout, and pike.
(4) Spirometra mansonoides tapeworms can be acquired from copepods (a type of freshwater crustacean), birds, snakes, reptiles, amphibians, and rodents.

Edited to correct link.

What do champion show and athletic dogs eat?

thanks for that info, Janet. seems the only one i have to worry about is the rabbit and birds atm. i dont feed fish, or sheep/goat..
is it possible to over worm, like over vaccinating?

worms are something you should stay on top of anyway.. the tapeworm Kaydee got i think came from dead possum
she found it, munched a little before i could get to it bury....


so far...
what i am hearing is the normal price range for feeding raw is ... roughly start out with one pound per dog (since i have large dogs)
and in my local grocer's sales add there is a sale on misc. cut fryer breasts - 5lbs for 4.59, and fresh fryer thighs - 5lbs for 4.95...
but the local butcher is selling chicken quarters 14lbs for $20.... i think thats right.. dont quote me on that. i swear i am dislexic with numbers... i'll have to find that paper again. but the butcher also sells beef bones, the tails, and neck bones. i asked about the heavier bones.. but i dont think they do much with those. they just directed me to packaged stuff, which wasnt too badly priced for the amount that i bought. the quality was good too. people use that stuff around here for soups and stews.. which means its safe for dogs.

oh! by the way, i found some pamphlets outside on the grill for Evo and California Natural... i think thats what the receptionist gave him to read when he asked questions.
so now i'm thoroughly confused..... the Evo brochure says "High protein. Low Carb. No grain." ....but the receptionist says dogs cant eat just meat... so ... they use apples, potatoes and tomatoes as well as meat?
and from what little i've read of California Natural, its got rice and other grains in it, so it wouldnt be that much of a switch, and probably cost the same as feeding either raw or evo.. but evo is already prepared for me? or do i have that wrong?

ORIGINAL: ron2

Dogs are domesticated wolves, but still wolves

And dogs are omnivores. And so are wolves. Whether they are the same species or not. It's a proven, observable scientific fact that omnivorous behavior exists in both.

 
Hmm..if that is the definition of omnivore that there probably are no carnivorous mammalian species existing on the planet earth.  All meat-eating mammals  consume some sort of vegetable matter, whether it is the stomach contents of their prey, or occasional supplementation of their prey with some vegetetative matter.
 
The only real way to tell whether an animal is a carniovore, omnivore or herbavore is by looking at the teeth and digetstive system.  Human beings and other primates are classic examles of an omnivorous anatomy and physiolgy, horses and squirrels are classic herbivores, and an example of classic predatory carnivore structure would be, you guessed it,  canids and felids, both wild and domestic. 
 
Those species that do supplement their diest with plant matter have evolved to do so because out in the wild there is no guarantee that prey will be available - hunting is tough business!  It's unpredictable and not to mention dangerous for the predator.  Eating fruits and other plant matter allows the animal to get some calories and nutrients when huting times are tough. 
 
All species have evolved a physiological structure to adapt to their environment and what resources available - wouldn't it be useless and for an omnivore to have a carnivorous structure?  Such a creature would consider to be unfit for its environment and eventually go extinct.
 
In my opinion, dogs, just like wolves, do need some vegetable matter in their diets for optimum health.  I do not believe in meat and bone only diets.

Also wanted to point out that there is absolutely no evidence that domestic dogs have "evolved" into omnivores. That is ludicrous. Whoever made that statement needs to read a few books on evolution and mammalian physiology.   They have the exact same digestive system as wolves.  If this evolution did take place, you would see a longer digestive tract, shorter canine teeth and flat back teeth made for griding.  Hasn't happened.
 
Edited  because I got digestive tract lengths confused

Dog_ma

Hee, I've tried giving Sasha raw human grade chicken, and she sniffs it and walks away.

Partially cook a piece and cut out the bone.  I bet she eats it.  After a couple of times of successfully doing that, just sear a piece on the outside and give it to her.  If she eats that OK, try a raw piece again.