Raw diet

I havent yet, but Im planning on soon putting angel on a raw diet. She needs more nutrients.
Heres a couple websites about raw diets. i didnt read them word for word, but they seem pretty positive. =]
 
[linkhttp://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/sampleraw.htm#testim]http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/sampleraw.htm#testim[/link]
 
Heres a quote from the site above.

The common practice of feeding meat without bones (or bone meal) is nutritionally disastrous for dogs and cats. There are far too many people giving eggs and meat to their pets without providing a balance to all the phosphorus they contain. Meat contains no calcium, and lots of phosphorus; bones contain lots of calcium. Eggs contain lots of phosphorus; the shells contain calcium. That is nature's balance. If we feed meat without bones or eggs without shells, or aren't sure of the correct ratios of those things to feed, we must use something to replace them. It is a common and tragic mistake to give a diet far too high in phosphorus to cats and dogs." Christie Keith from [linkhttp://www.caberfeidh.com/NaturalDiet.htm]Natural diet.... what is it?[/link]   Raw fat is also vitally important in carnivore's diet for optimum health and performance.

That may help some. It  doesnt direguard  egg and raw meals, just says dogs need more calcium in there diets to stay lean and strong.
 
And heres some more tips from the above site for raw diets and nutrients for healthier dogs:
 

[linkImproving>http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/anutmed.htm][size=4]Improving Your Animal's Immune System and Overall Health with Nutritional Support[/link]
A groundswell of nutrition conscious veterinarians are beginning to recommend to their clients that they supplement their animals diet with a daily dose of flaxseed oil and other important nutrients.When the diets of animals were fortified with flax, within three weeks their coats developed a beautiful sheen, and dandruff was greatly diminished. There are amazing testimonials about animals recovering from cancer, diabetes and other severe degenerative illnesses with a nutritional product called Transfer Factor.

 
[linkhttp://www.outoftheearth.com/natdiet.htm]http://www.outoftheearth.com/natdiet.htm[/link]
 
 
The second  link i didn get to explore much but it seems helpful to say the least. Sorry i couldnt be of much help!

thanks for the links!
i sent them to my husband to read. we got into a huge argument earlier today about this, which put me in a real funk...
but when he got home we sat down and talked it out. he told me he actually stopped by a vet today and repeated what the girl behind the counter said.... then i explained what i knew in regards to that... then found some websites... which is when he asked about the cost.
he said "So we feed Kaydee and Ben half a chicken each every day? we cant afford that! WE cant even afford to eat like that!"
so i had to come here and ask what the budget would be for two large breed dogs... we have a local butcher that i get raw meaty bone snacks from for a good price, but it hasnt yet become a staple of their diet like i want....
and given Kaydee's health at the moment, she needs a drastic overhaul in diet.... And Ben keeps getting soars on his shoulder that i cant find the source of... it just looks like irritated skin.
so, if i can prove to my husband that it would be more affordable and beneficial for all - smaller poop that dissolves faster = cleaner less stinky front yard where kids like to play, cleaner less stinky dogs - and bulldogs can have some SERIOUS B.O. even when you keep them clean- and healthier, more active/alert dogs... then i think i can get him to agree to quit buying the dry food completely...
but right now he is convinced it will cost too much and add to it that the RECEPTIONIST told him dogs are omnivores and cant handle pure raw meat....
dont get me wrong, i'm not putting anyone down for feeding dry food, but i am thinking for our dogs there needs to be a change. i've had dogs my whole life and they all ate dry food and table scraps and they all lived to be happy old senior dogs..
but the more i think about it.. i think i need to at least try something different for my dogs right now, and raw seems to make the most sense.

DumDog

apparently he asked a vet today about it who told him that dogs are no longer wolves and have evolved into omnivores and cant handle raw meat - therefore the dog food diet MUST stay - so i need some proof of otherwise... 

Your vet is spouting the dog food salesman spiel.  Ask him 
(1) how much formal nutrition training he has had other than lectures from dog food company reps and
(2) for some documentation on exactly what the differences are between the digestive tract of a wolf and a dog. 
I have yet to see any documentation on so much as a digestive enzyme difference or a stomach pH difference.
 
If dogs can't handle raw meat, there wouldn't be a growing number of dogs that are thriving on a raw diet.  Monica Segal, a canine nutritionist, has publications on the proper way to feed raw in the absence of a variety of whole prey.
 
Raw feeding (links and publications):
http://forum.dog.com/asp/m.asp?m=305654 
 
In an evolutionary aspect there has not been enough time for the dog to develop a significant digestive difference from the wolf.  Before commercial dog food most dogs did a lot of their own hunting and supplemented that with what people gave them.  Significant changes to the digestive tract of an animal take 10's of thousands of years to develop - not less than a century.  Dogs are domesticated wolves, but still wolves.

See im planning on putting angel on a raw die as her fur is dingy and nasty any more. We have tried different dog foods with more nutrients but nothing works as nothing has enough nutrients no matter how many more nutrients  one dog food has compared to another brand, you know?
 
 
   Angel just got through blowing her coat a few months back but her got has never been this dry,flat and dingy. its terrible. not to mention the dry skin and brittle nails. My grandpa had his lab on a raw diet for some time to maintain his wieght, labs will eat and eat whether theyre full or not, and it worked great. Hes a big, shiny pretty and healthy lab now! So I'd  say go for it. As for the eggs, you wouldnt have to give the 3 eggs a peice, just maybe 1 or 2 a day with one of their meals.
 The one thing im worried about is, changing my dog from a dry food diet to a raw food diet, even gradually adding  the raw in, do you think at first the dogs stools will be runny like most dogs after first switching from one food to another, or do you think the chicken will prevent that? Since  cooked chicken eases diarreah, would raw chicken do the same?  this is something i'll have to do some research on that.

DumDog

right now he is convinced it will cost too much  

You need to talk to people in the Florida raw feeding co-ops:
http://www.dogaware.com/dogfeeding.html#co-ops 
 
You would probably need a freezer so you can buy in volume.

ah cool! they have a floribama group! thats right up my alley, literally!
and yes gonna need the freezer. we have a large upright freezer but it needs a new pan welded to the bottom. it drips a river so it cant be inside, and if its outside in the heat... well... it has to work harder to keep cold.. we did that once and ran up the electric. sooo not worth it.... all it needs is for my husband to take time out to do some welding... ha.. yeah right

and i told him the same thing you did about vet hawking kibble for commision. and it was the receptionist that told him this... and this was AFTER i sent him a link about the history of dry food - came about after the WW to keep from throwing out grains and cereals..... sometimes i wonder if he listens at all.....
still... i keep repeating to myself... he's only owned one dog.. it lived to be 17... over and over again.. he is ineed a work in progress.....

Prices are different in Australia, but I reckon we'd (by 'we' I mean 'my mother') spend about $20-30 a week feeding one medium dog and two small dogs, which is about half of what I'd spend feeding one human being. It is kinda expensive compared to kibble, but to be honest, the improvement in the health of the two little ones was so vast that we wouldn't dream of going back to kibble. We didn't think they were unhealthy on kibble, but then we started them on homecooked and then raw and we were shocked and ashamed by the difference in the dogs as a result. I'm convinced the raw diet has added at least 2 years onto Penny's lifespan. And they love it so much more than kibble that that alone would convince me to fork out the extra. Vets like to tell you that the only safe food for a dog is dog food, but the simple fact of it from my experience is that the only thing that's ever made my dog sick is dog food, and the cure for her chronic bouts of stomach upset turned out to be pet mince and mashed vegies. My vet was the one that convinced me to try it and I've never looked back, so there.

I think you can also streamline the cost, as well. You hunt around for cheap sources of meat, and buy up when you see things on special. 

I really only supplement with raw at this point; feeding some raw meals, some home cooked meals, and rotating a few different kibbles- but I did do totally raw for a while. For 4 dogs, which is the most I've had on raw at once, one weighing 10 pounds, one weighing 60, one weighing 100, and one weighing 35, it was about $50 a week. I had a "nothing over $1 per pound" rule that I stuck to, with a few exceptions like fish and organ meats. I'd say it costs about the same as a mid-range kibble.

Dogs are domesticated wolves, but still wolves

 
And there are some who would differ with you.
 
Yes, dogs can consume raw meat. So can humans. Sushi restaraunts are still popular. What humans and some dogs can suffer from is parasitic infection from infected meat. Yes, dogs can suffer from pancreatitis. The main germs we can suffer from are killed by something we can all manage to create. Heat.
 
And dogs are omnivores. And so are wolves. Whether they are the same species or not. It's a proven, observable scientific fact that omnivorous behavior exists in both. Many BARF diets will contain a recipe for the inclusion of certain vegetables that are simply the fastest, most effective way to get certain minerals into the diet.
 
And not all nutrition education comes from the commercial companies. On of our longtime members doesn't post much anymore because she got tired of people telling her that her education was fiat and her direct physical experience in the caretaking of gray wolves, as well as her experience with her own field trial hounds doesn't mean beans. This, in spite of the fact that she does feed her dogs some raw.
 
So, I'm not saying you shouldn't feed your dogs raw. I think Shadow gets a little bit when he kills a bird or squirrel. He also eats grass and plants. He will eat a cracker. He likes my cajun mashed sweet potatos. Dogs, more than wolves, are opportunist feeders. This is what led them to hang around human places. But I hate to see the vet take a hit because he dare speak against the practice of feeding raw.
 
Perhaps the other big concern here is budget, which can certainly be managed. Example, supermod Glenda does raw, homecooked, and some kibble for 6 GSDs, each dog averaging 90+ lbs. That's a few lbs of food a day, times 6. Just for the dogs. So, it can be done. Good luck to the OP with whatever decision and I hope it's worth all the trouble you're going through.
 
 

Ron, good post........I am really torn on the raw feeding.....my vet is completely against it, she has seen many dogs with intestinal problems from raw feeding, but that is just her experience.....she is a younger vet btw.

I use a good kibble and use a lot of cooked meat, eggs, cottage cheese....etc.
So, budget for me , thank God, is not an issue.....I just can't get over the idea of salmonella and other parasitical issues .....

this shd go w/o saying, but all raw food you feed your dog shd be fit for human consumption.  if you *could* eat it (although i know some people are totally grossed out by the idea) then so can your dog. 
 
a dog who has lived a life on kibble and gets switched to raw might get poorly because a) he will be unaccustomed to the kind of food and b) the gut may not be able to cope with the level of bacteria BUT having said that, loads of dogs get ill just from switching kibble.  i dont think raw is entirely to blame.
 
are vet schools sponsored by pet food companies? just a thought.  also bear in mind that a vet sees these things from a vets perspective.  the vet is generally going to see the dogs that have become unwell on a raw diet because thats the nature of their job.  most dogs that have health/bhvr problems, are, i suspect, on kibble.  i wonder how many of thir prblms can be linked back(directly or indirectly) to being fed kibble?
 
for example, i know and have come into contact with A\ LOT of people who own dogs and feed kibble and for the most part, i think canine oral hygiene is very poor.  lots of owners - most even - do not clean their dogs teeth and the dogs teeth do not get cleaned as a matter if course when they eat.  gingivitis ensues which is linked to poor internal health (liver, kidneys etc).  this is a growing problem - in thuk at least.  hence the Pet Smile Week campaign recently.
 
see if you can find a vet or breeder who feeds raw and speak to them in detail about HOW to make the switch.  do some reading, theres quite a few books on raw diets for dogs.  try billinghurst's "Give Your Dog A Bone".
 
i think the key thing about raw is that it means the dog has meat AND bones.  heating the food to kill bacteria also changes the composition of the meat and bones, making them far more unsafe and negating the dental benefit for the dog.

Good discussion.   I'm not convinced that a dogs diet should replicate a wolves;  while dogs are decentants of wolves I do believe that enough time has elapsed for dogs to be significantly different from an evolutionary perspective.  In fact, the museum here recently had an exhibit about the evolution of wolves - here's the write up which talks about the 7 - 40 MILLION of years that dogs have been in existance.  I'm not talking about dog breeds, which humans have roduced through selective breeding - breeds are obviously younger than dogs as a species, but the species
[linkhttp://www.nhm.org/exhibitions/dogs/evolution/evolution.html]http://www.nhm.org/exhibitions/dogs/evolution/evolution.html[/link]

I don't want to debate the appropriateness of it, but I've been feeding my dogs raw for well over 2 years now and I'll never feed anything else. Just to chime in on the financial aspect of it though, it is much more affordable for me than a high quality dog food. The trick to it is having a freezer. The extra space lets you stock up when things are on sale and that makes all the difference.
 
I have three dogs: two that are about 25 pounds, and one about 30. One of my 25 pound dogs has the metabolism of an Olympic athlete though. She eats about the same amount that I'd start a 50 pound dog at, so my numbers are skewed a bit. Between the three of them I feed 2-2.5 pounds a day.
 
I pay .30-.59 per lb for any kind of poultry, mostly by buying chicken leg quarters on sale. I pay .89-.99 per lb for pork and beef (boneless or close to it), by buying whole roasts and briskets on sale. I get deer for free because my dad hunts. He and his friends save me the scrap meat bits, and all organs. I pay about $1 a pound for whole fish at a small Asian market. I do pay quite a bit more for lamb and whole rabbit, but they aren't staples and I consider that the counterbalance to free venison. If I'm careful, I can easily feed my dogs for .75 a pound or less. That's $1.50-1.90 a day to feed 80 pounds of dog, or 105 pounds of dog if you didn't have one who eats like a horse. That#%92s about what I#%92d pay for a single can of high quality dog food around here. I do give fish oil and some table scraps but that#%92s it as far as supplementation.
 
Of course, I#%92ll never pay for a dental cleaning. I no longer have to buy flea/tick preventative. My chronic ear infection dog hasn#%92t had a problem since the switch, either. I#%92m not saying that a raw diet means no vet visits ever, but it helps, and that should factor in.
 
And since you mentioned the body odor thing, one of my dogs came from a not-so-clean shelter. Her first day home, I gave her a bath. As soon as the water hit her it was like I was standing in elephant dung at the zoo. It was the most horrific wet dog smell ever, and the shampoo didn#%92t even phase it. For a couple of weeks, every time she ran around and got hot she smelled just like that. The next bath was a month later, and it was a little better. Within a few months she had no smell at all, wet or dry, even after she races around the yard. That alone is worth it to me.
 

LOL dogs are domesticated so they have to eat cooked stuff. Is that why when my ridgebacks kill squirrel and rabbit they present it to me for plucking/skinning, and cooking? And that's why they're sooooo reluctant to eat bloody food.
 
Your vet is cute. Whether you decide to go raw or not, the last thing you need is people confusing you with nonsense. 
 
Of course the diet has its advantages and disadvantages. One disadvantage I can think of that is unique to you (not me) is that you have a small child so you have to be particularly careful about handling raw meats (microbial contamination of surfaces in the house or your dog's nose that your kid kisses).  That is something you should look into I think.
 
Paula - who occaisionally feeds raw but it's kind of expensive to keep three ridgebacks in NV and she's too lazy to keep doing it the hard way.