Dog Community

Royal Canin...(I can't believe I'm saying this)

Posted : 4/29/2006 1:51:14 PM

Ok, so today there was a royal canin seminar to the animal nutrition grad students (us who are concentrating on companion animal nutrition) and they actually had some good points that I am debating on (we also got a bunch of free bags of dog food, lol) and I wanted some of your opinions.
Anyways, I brought up the menadione thing and they said that most of their formulas don't have it anymore (which I read the labels and confirmed), and they are working on removing it from the ones that do. I also brought up the corn gluten meal thing, and they made a good point about how the studies against it were feeding dogs only corn gluten meal as a protein source, which is why the dogs had lean mass deterioration (which is true regarding those) and the royal canin foods have the animal protein meals too, so the corn gluten meal was added for extra amino acids. They showed us their research (done at their facility in France) which was actually pretty convincing, so I was a little stumped at more arguements to come up with. I ended up getting the free bag of the "Special 30 mini" or whatever it's called for dogs w/ sensitivities, and the ingredients are:
Chicken meal, chicken, brewers rice, brown rice, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), corn gluten meal, dried eggs, beet pulp (sugar removed), natural chicken flavor, brewers yeast, canola oil, fructo-oligosaccharides, salmon oil, potassium chloride, monosodium phosphate, dried sweet potatoes, choline chloride, salmon meal, dicalcium phosphate, flax seed, zinc proteinate, vitamin E supplement, dried blueberries, dehydrated alfalfa meal, dried spinach, marigold extract, folic acid supplement, zinc oxide, iron sulfate, manganese proteinate, biotin, sage, copper proteinate, calcium pantothenate, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, vitamin A supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, sodium selenite, rosemary extract, ascorbic acid, niacin supplement, riboflavin supplement, thiamine mononitrate, vitamin B12 supplement, calcium iodate, vitamin D3 supplement.

I know it has brewer's rice, and the controversial "beet pulp" which is not desireable, but I was just curious if you guys thought it is as bad as we thought?

ron2

Posted : 4/29/2006 2:22:41 PM

I remember posting in that other thread about lean body wasting ( the thread title was about the evils of grain (corn) in food) I remember posting how it was a specific indicator followed by specifically limiting the amount of protein and that it was an incompletes study, usually designed to get more grant money. Nonetheless, it did point out that if you limit the amount of nutrition to a certain amount and it is just one fraction of corn, you could have some lean muscle wasting.

No one here does that, thank goodness.

I

schlep

Posted : 4/29/2006 2:33:56 PM

Aside from the brewer's rice and corn gluten meal, that ingredient list could easily be confused with Eagle Pack Holistic Select. About the corn gluten meal, though, there are higher quality ingredients they could use for amino acids. Solid Gold uses millet in a lot of their formulas, Eagle Pack uses oatmeal, etc. Since it doesn't seem like there have been too many independent studies on dog nutrition, it's kind of hard to tell whether or not corn gluten meal is as good as millet and oatmeal or whatever. Maybe SG and EP are wasting their money, but I'd rather err on the side of ingredients I recognize than on by-products.

papillon806

Posted : 4/29/2006 3:55:45 PM

I know what you mean, but their nutritionists argument was that the corn gluten meal was not supplying the amino acids, the chicken and chicken meal were, so the corn gluten meal added extra amino acids which proved (according to the studies they showed us) helped condition the coat. The brewer's rice is the only thing that is iffy (although it's not as bad as some things). I'm just on the fence about it because they will give us 50% all Royal Canin products for life. *sigh* I'm so confused right now!

schlep

Posted : 4/29/2006 4:07:17 PM

Studies can show anything they want to. For years, Macintosh computers were at least 2x as fast as Intel computers. [sm=biggrin.gif]

Seriously, all animal proteins are complete proteins that offer all the essential amino acids. Grains and vegetables contain certain amino acids, but never all. I haven't seen their study, but more than likely what it says is that corn gluten meal contains X number of amino acids and thus is a good addition to dog food. I doubt it addresses the digestibility of corn gluten meal or other benefits it might have.

If I'm the producer of Royal Canin, Purina, or whatever I'm definitely going to commission studies that bend the truth a bit in order to satisfy my bottom line. Now if the study includes the exact same formula except one has corn gluten meal, one has an alternative like oatmeal, and another has neither, then that's a good study. I doubt that's what they did, though.

Btw, I hate that whole seedy book on marketing techniques that Hill's seems to have invented and all the rest are following suit.

papillon806

Posted : 4/29/2006 4:22:08 PM

Keep in mind I study animal nutrition and I know all of these gimicks they try to put across. The reason I was expressing my concern was because the studies they were showing us were valid even to my standards. I know that corn gluten meal contains only a certain number of amino acids, some which aren't even readily available to the animal. My point was that they have animal protein sources that satisfy the amino acid requirements already, they just added the corn gluten meal to add extra amino acids, and because the extras were added, it helped the dogs skin (which is true if there are extra amino acids).
I for one, am not fooled by false studies such as the one's Hill's, etc try to come up with. Also, they were giving a seminar to us students who's professors were present...they would not have been able to get away with a false study here, trust me, lol.

schlep

Posted : 4/29/2006 4:28:18 PM

And my point is let's assume the study is correct and animals are able to get some or all of the amino acids out of the corn gluten meal. Doesn't it stand to reason that they would get more amino acids out of higher quality ingredients like whole grains, vegetables and fruits?

papillon806

Posted : 4/29/2006 4:28:56 PM

No, I agree with you on that. I'm just saying that if I can get it for so cheap and it's not harmful, why not?

schlep

Posted : 4/29/2006 4:36:33 PM

It's really just a matter of preference. I like to think that feeding my puppy Solid Gold and FarMore is akin to me eating chicken breast, rice, and vegetables. Now that may or may not be the case, but I am satisfied with Link's health and he gets a lot of compliments. Now could I also just as easily go to KFC and get chicken, mashed potatoes and vegetables for myself? Sure. But I'm not convinced that what they sell is made from the same things as what I make in my kitchen.

Maybe that's a dumb comparison, but it's kinda how I think of the holistic brands vs. the petsmart premium brands.

papillon806

Posted : 4/29/2006 5:14:48 PM

I do agree with you....this is why I'm still on the fence about it, lol....it would just be so cheap for me, and I figured if it wasn't harmful it won't affect his quality of life? ack! I'm so confused right now! My personal judgement tells me not to, my scientific judgement tells me it's fine! I even expressed my concern with my professor about the corn gluten meal and she told me that as long as the animals amino acid requirements were satisfied with animal protein, the excess amino acids from the corn gluten meal are negligible. *sigh*! [sm=uhoh.gif]

tacran

Posted : 4/29/2006 6:03:18 PM

Jana, my question for you is somewhat off-topic . . . and my apologies for having you answer with info everyone else probably already knows. Do you study animal nutrition because you are a student in veterinary school? Or, is there such a thing as a degree in just animal nutrition? I'm curious for a couple reasons. I have a cousin who is trying to get into vet school now, and I'd love to think that today's students are getting some specialty classes in nutrition. So many of the vets I've encountered (especially older ones) have nothing valuable to contribute when we've sought nutrition advice. On the other hand, if there is some kind of degree one can get just for nutrition, without having to becoming a DVM, that would be really interesting to know, also. It would be an area of study my husband would love (even though he's kind of too old to start over in college now!). Thanks in advance for your reply.

papillon806

Posted : 4/29/2006 6:11:03 PM

tacran-- I graduated with a BS degree in animal science with all the pre-vet requirements. Instead of going to vet school, I went to grad school for animal nutrition (although it is held at the vet school and we use their laboratories, etc... it is not a DVM degree it is a Doc. of animal nutrition)

tacran

Posted : 4/29/2006 6:41:37 PM

Thanks, Jana. One last question - is it just as difficult to get accepted into the animal nutrition doctorate program as it is the full vet program? My cousin has applied twice, and she's trying again this year. If she isn't accepted, perhaps the doctorate program would be a great alternative if she has a better shot at getting into that program. She was a good undergrad student (with a biology degree) and has worked as a vet tech for about 4 years, but the competition is tough when trying to get accepted! Thanks again!

papillon806

Posted : 4/29/2006 6:44:55 PM

It's definately easier (I think) as long as you have over a 3.0 general GPA and over a 3.5 major GPA and a decent GRE score you should be fine.

tacran

Posted : 4/29/2006 6:49:21 PM

Thanks for the quick reply - I'll pass the info on to her!