Need help finding a healthy, weight control food

IMO, the best recipe for weight loss is activity.  Slightly reduce the amount of food, tremendously reduce the amount of treats and INCREASE the length of walks gradually. 
 
The downside of doing this is that the owner generally becomes more "fit and trim" as well.  The dog's energy level and metabolism both increase, and overall everyone is much happier.
 
So to me it's not about which food you feed but what you do in between meals.

The kibbles are huge puffy things, mostly air, so the owner can feed the dog a lot of them without giving too many calories.

Aren't most weight loss kibbles like that? Hills R/D sounds like Cocoa Puffs hitting the bowl, and W/D is also very light.

I have personally seen some remarkable, quick and necessary weight loss with Fit and Trim.  Would I cringe feeding it to my dog, yes.  But the amount of overweight, no wait, obese dogs, that I am seeing every day now is horrible.  Some that can barely walk.  Stomach near the floor.  Its so sad.  Do Fit and Trim if your in that situation and then switch back to the dogs regular food and hopefully use control this time.  Some dogs need surgery and can't even have it to save them due to their weight.  If its just a matter of taking off a couple lbs then I think reducing the amount you feed, cut out treats and walk them more often and you might be fine.  But for those that blew it and have dogs that are suffering, Fit and Trim works.  I am praying that I can keep my puppy slim.  Everyone says he is skinny, too skinny and I love it.  He is eating great and the right amount.  He is just a lanky sort.   I would consider for just a few lbs trying Pro Plan or One if you are staying with Purina.  Or at least just do the Fit and Trim for a very short time.

 ( For Susan  I just want to snatch your  most gorgeous puppy right out of the monitor.  he reminds me so much of my Boots, lost to bone cancer 10 years ago this July at age 12 1/2/.  )
 
Now, back on topic,  When our first golden golden ballooned up over night from like 65 pounds to 87, he was diagnosed with low thyroid and also hip HD. Because of the hip problems, he needed to get the weight off as soon as possible.  he was put on the tyroid meds, and also my vet said to put him on Fit and Trim.  It worked.  Between the meds and the food, the weight came off fast and he never did put it back on after going back to regular food. 
 
KayCee had knee problems,luxating patellas, and had one knee operated on at 16 months, the other 14 months later.  Between her bad knees, surgeries, and recovery time, she also packed on a lot of weight because she couldn't really get the needed exercise.  AFter she was normal--except for weight--i did try the fit and trim for her and it didn't work, so she went on the Science Diet r/d and it did work and she dropped back down from 85 to 68. She had also needed to get the weight off those knees.   Once down to that weight i did put her on Fit and Trim and she kept the weight off, and we were also giving it to our adopted golden mix who was a little over weight and it helped take a few pounds off her.  Almost a year ago I put both kayCee and honey on purina one weight management and then a few months ago i switched KayCee, almost 8 to the Purina One Senior.  She has never put the weight back on. 
 
Someone said the weight control foods were a "gimmick".  Well that "gimmick" worked great for my dogs.  I am thankful they were around to help me out when my  Scooter and kayCee needed to drop weight fast.  Slow weight loss just because a dog is a few pounds over weight is one thing, but when things like bad knees or hips are involved, weight needs to come off fast, and then worry about keeping it off.
 
Another thing, weight gain can sneak up on some dogs, expecially large ones with long, thick coats.  They can put on 5-6 pounds without you even noticing.  For these, cutting back on food would be an easy solution for dropping a few pounds.
 
 
 

quick and necessary weight loss with Fit and Trim.

 
quick weight loss isn't healthy. Slow steady weight loss is better. Better yet, don't let the dog get fat in the first place.

My bulldog was 44 pounds. I got her to 35-37 in about 4 months.  That was7 /8 pounds.  She went from a rolly-polly to svelte trim waisted bullie I was envious of.  How did I do it?  The vet told me to substitue cooked green beans for about 1/2 of the the kibble.  She loved them.  I also started to give her carrots as a treat.
 
Later when we went to raw, I found that raw keeps the weight at a perfect weight no matter how much I gave the bulldogs.  In fact on my Golden, he lost a little too much so I upped his raw rations in the winter. 

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

weight-loss foods are a gimmick for owners-- owners simply can't bear to feed their dog a miniscule quantity of food

Harden your heart and feed less of a good food and exercise the dog more. Buy a smaller dog bowl if the amount you're feeding looks ridiculously small

IMO, it's almost cruel to feed a minuscule amount of food. Most dogs *like* to eat. I want my dogs to get some satisfaction out of eating. If that means I pay for some air in the kibbles and have to feed 1 cup instead of 1/4 cup, that's okay. These super-dense formulas are hard for some dogs to digest anyway. If a dog needs a minuscule amount of food then adding some bulk - whether it be in kibble fillers or in green beans - just seems more humane.

Harden your heart

 
This struck me in a funny way.  One of my favortie movies is The Ten Commandments (I fell in "love" with Charleton heston when I saw this movie back in about '56)  Anway, each time a plague hit Egypt and the pharoah considerd letting the people go,  "his heart was hardened" and he refused and another plague was brought down on Egypt.  I thought "I would not harden my heart and risk plagues on us." Hee Hee
 
But I agree with sooner.  I am most definately against over feed dogs and my husband is sure i am not giving the girls enough to eat, but they maintain their weight on what I feed them.  But i will not have the poor things constantly hunting for food because i am only giving them a cup a day or whatever.  humans 9most anyway_ understand diets, the need for them, and the empty feeling from time to time.  Dogs do not. They would just know they are hungry. And soemtiems getting weight off fast is important, especially when bad joints are involved and the longer the weight stays on, the more damage is done.  I would rather pull the weight off and lose the dog to heart attack 1 or 2 years early than go slowly and then have the dog live that extra few years in total miserly with joint damage.

ORIGINAL: sooner

IMO, it's almost cruel to feed a minuscule amount of food. Most dogs *like* to eat. I want my dogs to get some satisfaction out of eating. If that means I pay for some air in the kibbles and have to feed 1 cup instead of 1/4 cup, that's okay. These super-dense formulas are hard for some dogs to digest anyway. If a dog needs a minuscule amount of food then adding some bulk - whether it be in kibble fillers or in green beans - just seems more humane.

 
But with puffed up kibble, the dog is not eating more, it's just to make the owner feel better about filling up the bowl.  Dogs also don't have the intellecutal capacity to comprehend amounts, or numbers.  That is why really small treats work when training, they don't realize the amount your giving is miniscule, otherwise they wouldn't bother to work for it.  Besides, many dogs, including mine, think they're starving no matter how much food you give.  The issue of it being 'cruel' I think is more related to the conscience of the owner. 
 
I really don't see what's so difficult about reducing the amount of a good quality kibble and adding green beans or veggies to make up the rest of the bulk.  With dachshunds, the breed I own, it's especially important to keep them from being overweight due to their propensity for back problems, and every dachshund owner I know easily takes weight off of fat rescue dogs this way, combined with a bit of excercise.
 
No one is saying that you should starve a dog, just that are plenty of much healthier ways to take weight off and keep it off then cheap, supermarket feeds full of fillers.  It's like putting a stage 1 cancer patient through chemotherapy when the tumor hasn't spread - sure it might get rid of the cancer but it's damaging the rest of the body in the process.

ORIGINAL: jenns



I really don't see what's so difficult about reducing the amount of a good quality kibble and adding green beans or veggies to make up the rest of the bulk

I agree. I'm not endorsing the lower quality foods, I was just addressing the two specific statements I quoted,

owners simply can't bear to feed their dog a miniscule quantity of food

Buy a smaller dog bowl if the amount you're feeding looks ridiculously small

which did not address adding bulk for the dog's satisfaction. I don't think it's only the conscience of the owner - a lot of dogs would be miserable being fed a "minuscule" amount.

KayCee was on Science Diet r/d and I never heard it popping like cocoa puffs at all. And neither did the Fit and Trim, so i don't know where all the air was in them.  heck, imagine the size the bag would have to be to contain 20 pounds of air filled kibble.  I don't think either of them are air filled.

This is a question for vetenarians, vetenarians to be, and etc.
 
When I am looking at weight management formulas, a lot of them contain corn gluten meal, rice gluten meal, or wheat gluten meal.  These, as I understand them, are cheaper sources of protein than meat.  Question: how much of the protein from these vegetable sources are absorbed by our dogs?  For example, Fit and Trim crude protein is 25% and some of it is from the gluten. So....20%? 21%? 
 
If my dog, Niko, is ever over weight, I would just reduced his portion and give him more exercise. Thank goodness that he is not overweight because of the exercise I try to make sure he gets everyday.
 
Pauline

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

quick and necessary weight loss with Fit and Trim.

quick weight loss isn't healthy. Slow steady weight loss is better. Better yet, don't let the dog get fat in the first place.

Then you can tell the owners of the 10 year old overweight rottweiler, lab, or weimeraner who needs to lose 40 lbs to have bilateral TPLO surgery that he should lose the weight nice and slow... its not like the dog has years to live or anything...

I wonder if you people realize how often this really happens??? How about 2-3 times a week where I work. Its sad, but its reality...

For a young foster I adopted that was overweight... no, I would not feed fit & trim... I would try feeding appropriate amounts and increasing excercise. If that didn't work, then yes, I would pick a diet food like Fit & trim or r/d, just like I use on my cats. You'll notice I did not recommend this diet for the OP, I just voiced my opinion on its necessity in certain cases. I'm once again shocked at the food snobs unwillingness to see situations where diets like this can and ARE essential.

ORIGINAL: NikoAwesomo
Question: how much of the protein from these vegetable sources are absorbed by our dogs? 

It depends on the plant source. Soy protein, for example, is highly digestable:

The effect of texturized vegetable protein from soy on nutrient digestibility compared to beef in cannulated dogs.

[linkHill>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Hill+RC%22%5BAuthor%5D]Hill RC[/link],

[linkBurrows>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Burrows+CF%22%5BAuthor%5D]Burrows CF[/link],

[linkEllison>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Ellison+GW%22%5BAuthor%5D]Ellison GW[/link],

[linkBauer>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Bauer+JE%22%5BAuthor%5D]Bauer JE[/link]. Department of Small Animal Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Florida, Gainesville 32610, USA. HillR@mail.vetmed.ufl.edu Texturized vegetable protein from soy (TVP) is widely used in canned dog foods, but its nutritional value remains in doubt. This study compared apparent prececal and total intestinal digestibility when four canned diets containing reciprocal proportions of protein from TVP (0 to 57%) and from beef (100 to 43%) were fed to eight cannulated dogs. As dietary TVP increased, the following linear changes were observed (P < 0.05): prececal and total intestinal protein digestibility decreased slightly from 77 to 71% and 86 to 80%, respectively; prececal amino acid digestibility decreased in parallel with protein; prececal carbohydrate digestibility decreased markedly from 80% to 62% and carbohydrate disappearance in the large intestine increased from 8 to 22%; prececal sodium digestibility decreased markedly (from 37 to 4%); and prececal potassium digestibility decreased (from 93 to 85%). Total intestinal digestibility of sodium and potassium decreased little (from 97 to 95% and from 98 to 97%, respectively); fecal mass and water content increased markedly (from 98 to 174 g/d and from 61 to 72%, respectively); and fat digestibility was unaffected. Prececal phosphorus digestibility from two diets containing TVP was lower than that from the all-beef diet (13 and 17%, vs 26%, P < 0.05). In conclusion, TVP is a useful source of protein in canine canned diets because amino acids from TVP are almost as digestible as those from beef in the canine intestine. Nevertheless, soy carbohydrate is poorly digested and large amounts of TVP inhibit small intestinal electrolyte digestibility and increase fecal water content.

I really couldn't find much on the other protein sources. Most of the digestibility studies I found were based on the carbohydrate portions, or used some really funky ingredients that aren't used in dog foods that I've seen. Do a search on www.pubmed.com You can really learn a lot in a short period of time...

Robert Abady has an older article (not on their website), challenging the industry and Vets on these diets.  In a nutshell, what Abady is telling us dogs are chubby directly due to the high carbs and fiber in the existing diets.  Increasing that fiber content for weight loss and now you can be compounding problems setting up the dog for possible much more damage down the road.  Feed your dog better, meaning cut out the excess carbs and fiber, and you will have a better fit dog.  And my dogs are my proof that method works.  800 cals per cup and not an ounce of fat...go figure ehhh?  Each one of your dogs have that potential to be textbook in every sense of the word, and you don't need Abady to do it (makes it easy for me though).  What you need to do is simply feed your dog accordingly and that means no compromise on animal source protein, very low carb and fiber, supplement with vitamins (but don't over do it, some vitamins can cause toxicity in excess, do your homework) if your not sure your getting it right.  You can work with an existing ration causing the weight gain, reduce the amount of product
and supplement with home prepared meat and poultry.  Worst place to skimp is on the animal source proteins.  When your dog is properly nourished, food will longer be a main focus...may even surprise you and skip a meal.  They eat only when their body calls for them to eat, maybe not necessarily on your schedual...save it in the fridge for next time.

[linkhttp://www.geocities.com/abadysingapore/weight_reduction.htm]http://www.geocities.com/abadysingapore/weight_reduction.htm[/link]