Need help finding a healthy, weight control food

It's interesting that it says in your link several times that certain things are scientific fact with no evidence to substantiate the claim. There are no studies to support his claims, one of which is that dogs will only eat what their bodies need. That clearly isn't true because we have so many obese pets around. Does he think the dogs need to be obese? I wonder if he thinks because he says it it's fact. The few times he mentions a study (like the purdue bload etc) he doens't cite it. When you actually find the citation, it's doesn't really support what he is saying. Regardless of what his "research" has shown, you can only call it proof, or evidence if it has been published in peer reviewed journals, especially when it conflicts things that have already been published. This would mean that his research methods and results would be open to the scrutiny of other scientists. There is not ONE citation on pubmed from Dr. R. Abady, I wonder why that is? I'd be interested to see what the ingredients are in his "no fat" but 800/kcal/cup food, especially since the company won't give mordana the ingredient profile to even post on thedogfoodproject.com. I have a huge ethical problem with "doctors" pushing products which aren't researched with unsubstantiated claims. Just my [sm=2cents.gif], feeling a little snarky because every Abady post seems like a sales pitch more then an answer to the OP's question to me.

ORIGINAL: Misskiwi67

I wonder if you people realize how often this really happens??? How about 2-3 times a week where I work. Its sad, but its reality...

For a young foster I adopted that was overweight... no, I would not feed fit & trim... I would try feeding appropriate amounts and increasing excercise. If that didn't work, then yes, I would pick a diet food like Fit & trim or r/d, just like I use on my cats. You'll notice I did not recommend this diet for the OP, I just voiced my opinion on its necessity in certain cases. I'm once again shocked at the food snobs unwillingness to see situations where diets like this can and ARE essential.

Name calling... [&o]

Fact 1: Dog needs certain amount of protein, including certain minimum amounts of each amino acid, certain amounts of vitamins, minerals, etc .

Fact 2: You decide your dog is very fat, and give dog 30% less kibble. Your dog is now getting 30% fewer calories, BUT ALSO 30% less than the aa/vit/min requirements. Fewer calories, true, but not enough of everything else.

Fact 3: *Quality* weight control foods are usually higher in protein and supplementation, etc to combat this, and lower in fat. So the dog can still get the reccommended amount of other nutrients, but take in  fewer calories.

I think exercise is the best weight loss, of course. However, moderately to severly restricting intake, especially long term, can be detrimental. I am NOT talking about feeding pets on the light end - Studies do show that eating sparingly INCREASES lifespan. I am talking about putting dogs on DIETS simply by dramatically reducing amount of kibble.
 
That is why weight-control foods are sometimes necessary, when you really need to reduce calorie consumption.

Then you can tell the owners of the 10 year old overweight rottweiler, lab, or weimeraner who needs to lose 40 lbs to have bilateral TPLO surgery that he should lose the weight nice and slow... its not like the dog has years to live or anything...

 
I'm saddened by how frequent this occurs, but I'm also frustrated by it.  Obesity doesn't happen overnight.  However it takes a huge commitment to trade unhealthy habits for healthier ones.   Losing weight shouldn't be done at more than 1-3 lbs a week, IMO.  Add a couple of shorter walks, gradually adding time and distance, and reduce the treating. 
 
 

I thought this was an interesting study.
 
[linkhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=987166&query_hl=4&itool=pubmed_DocSum]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=987166&query_hl=4&itool=pubmed_DocSum[/link]
 
 
[linkhttp://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/106/10/1452]http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/106/10/1452[/link]

There have actually been a number of good studies performed comparing fat dogs fed traditional "filler" weight loss diets, the ones with lots of fiber and carbs and low-quality vegetable sources of protein, intended to "fill up" the dog, to fat dogs fed diets with a high ercentage of quality rotein and low carbs and NO filler. They feed the two groups the same number of calories, and both groups lose weight; but guess what, the dogs on the "filler" diet lose a lot of body muscle, while the dogs on the high protein diet retained their body muscle and just lost the body fat. If your dog is older, or having joint problems, the last thing you want to do is encourage the dog to lose its muscles. Good muscle structure is essential for support of joints.
 
As to the "it's cruel to feed your dog a miniscule quantity of food", well, I have a fat-prone dog. If I put her meal in a bowl she gobbles it up in seconds and then goes looking for more. If I feed her the exact same amount in a way that satisifies her hunting instincts-- by working to get it out of a food-dispensing toy or having to perform tricks to earn it-- she finishes her meal and happily goes and lies down to rest.

I just wanted to say that about a month ago I weighed Willow and she was 51.3 lbs.  That's a little too heavy for her.  So, all I did was decrease her food slightly, just by about 1/4 of a cup and I cut out the treats before I left in the afternoon.  I just fed her later.  And, we started walking. 

Well, the other day she was 47 lbs.  And, that's just in about 4 weeks.

So, I think it can be done.  I'd try maybe a grain free kibble and add meat. 

I sometimes use the same meat that I use for toppings as a treat instead of going with the cookie stuff all the time.  And, yogurt cubes are good too. 

Good luck.
Lori

ORIGINAL: ottoluv

It's interesting that it says in your link several times that certain things are scientific fact with no evidence to substantiate the claim. There are no studies to support his claims, one of which is that dogs will only eat what their bodies need. That clearly isn't true because we have so many obese pets around. Does he think the dogs need to be obese? I wonder if he thinks because he says it it's fact. The few times he mentions a study (like the purdue bload etc) he doens't cite it. When you actually find the citation, it's doesn't really support what he is saying. Regardless of what his "research" has shown, you can only call it proof, or evidence if it has been published in peer reviewed journals, especially when it conflicts things that have already been published. This would mean that his research methods and results would be open to the scrutiny of other scientists. There is not ONE citation on pubmed from Dr. R. Abady, I wonder why that is? I'd be interested to see what the ingredients are in his "no fat" but 800/kcal/cup food, especially since the company won't give mordana the ingredient profile to even post on thedogfoodproject.com. I have a huge ethical problem with "doctors" pushing products which aren't researched with unsubstantiated claims. Just my [sm=2cents.gif], feeling a little snarky because every Abady post seems like a sales pitch more then an answer to the OP's question to me.

 
 
Well, it makes sense to me anyway, and I think it works the same in people.  I recall a discussion in a sociology class once, studies indicate many times you find overweight people in poor ghetto communities.  They have a tendency to buy cheaper foods, more starches and carbs like pasta.  It's not rocket science.
 
If you feel high carb and high fiber diets are best for weight loss than go for it.  I wouldn't recommend them to the OP because I think Abady is correct (he is a bio-chemist, not a doctor), these high fiber, high carb diets are the problem, yet everyone is quick to say it is the pet owners fault rather than the fault of a poor improperly structured diet.  Feed better quality and the weight will come off.
 
 

(he is a bio-chemist, not a doctor)

Which is why I put doctor in quotes as he is frequently referred to as Dr. Abady. Still waiting to see those ingredients.........

The big problem with dry dog foods is the amount of carbs that the food contains, many of them high glycemic which bounces the dog's insulin level around.  In addition, these excess carbs are often stored as fat.  The so called weight reducing foods have even a bigger percentage of carbs, so are even worse. It is like trying to loose weight on nacho chips and french fries.

I started feeding my dog EVO LF, which is a low fat EVO, and contains zero grains!!!!  I can see the weight coming off her already....  It is about 50 some odd percent protein.....

[linkhttp://www.evopet.com/products/default.asp?id=1492]http://www.evopet.com/products/default.asp?id=1492[/link]

ORIGINAL: sooner

ORIGINAL: jenns



I really don't see what's so difficult about reducing the amount of a good quality kibble and adding green beans or veggies to make up the rest of the bulk

I agree. I'm not endorsing the lower quality foods, I was just addressing the two specific statements I quoted,

owners simply can't bear to feed their dog a miniscule quantity of food

Buy a smaller dog bowl if the amount you're feeding looks ridiculously small

which did not address adding bulk for the dog's satisfaction. I don't think it's only the conscience of the owner - a lot of dogs would be miserable being fed a "minuscule" amount.

Not nearly as miserable as they would be as obese, achy dogs that can't do any kind of physical activity.  Neither of my dogs ever think they are getting enough no matter what I feed them.  I have had to reduce Sally's kibble when she started gaining a little weight and there was no change in her behavior at all.

Then again I am the same "inhumane" person that will refuse to give a fat pony grain when the rest of the barn is getting some....

The big problem with dry dog foods is the amount of carbs that the food contains, many of them high glycemic which bounces the dog's insulin level around. 

Did you not see the previously posted study where blood glucose levels were compared after dogs consumed a meal of high carbs versus low carbs? Postprandial BG was no different. If the dog's insulin level was truly put under stress, you would see a hypoglycemic response as the body released more insulin to deal with abnormally high BG, and overshooting the mark. Low sugar meal? Enough insulin is released to lower BG. High sugar meal? Again, enough insulin is release to lower BG. There is no "bouncing around."  The only problem you may encounter is an eventual insulin insensitivity, but again, something like that has more than just one cause

The so called weight reducing foods have even a bigger percentage of carbs, so are even worse. It is like trying to loose weight on nacho chips and french fries.

Erroneous statement. The problems with those foods are the FAT. Carbohydrates are not the bad guy, and they are not "terrible junk food" - even to a dog. Cultures that have a high carbohydrate (even simple carbohydrate), LOW FAT diet (Japan, for example) are extremely healthy and live longer.

High protein, low carb does not necessarily equal weight loss.  There are many, many other factors that come into play.
 
 
ALSO, I find it funny that people keep referring to EVO as this wonderful grain free thing that will not mess with your dog's insulin levels. Potato, the carb ingredient, is little better than white rice in terms of glycemic index.
 
"NO GRAIN" is just a catchphrase. The carbohydrate percent is lower, but the ingredient they are using as that carbohydrate still ACTS like a grain.

ORIGINAL: sillysally

Not nearly as miserable as they would be as obese, achy dogs that can't do any kind of physical activity

No one is advocating adding extra calories, just extra bulk to help the dog feel fuller. Green beans are a good one, but kibble fillers aren't a whole lot different - not much nutritional value, minimal calories, and a little fiber.

ORIGINAL: whtsthfrequency

The big problem with dry dog foods is the amount of carbs that the food contains, many of them high glycemic which bounces the dog's insulin level around. 

Did you not see the previously posted study where blood glucose levels were compared after dogs consumed a meal of high carbs versus low carbs? Postprandial BG was no different. If the dog's insulin level was truly put under stress, you would see a hypoglycemic response as the body released more insulin to deal with abnormally high BG, and overshooting the mark. Low sugar meal? Enough insulin is released to lower BG. High sugar meal? Again, enough insulin is release to lower BG. There is no "bouncing around."  The only problem you may encounter is an eventual insulin insensitivity, but again, something like that has more than just one cause

The so called weight reducing foods have even a bigger percentage of carbs, so are even worse. It is like trying to loose weight on nacho chips and french fries.

Erroneous statement. The problems with those foods are the FAT. Carbohydrates are not the bad guy, and they are not "terrible junk food" - even to a dog. Cultures that have a high carbohydrate (even simple carbohydrate), LOW FAT diet (Japan, for example) are extremely healthy and live longer.

High protein, low carb does not necessarily equal weight loss.  There are many, many other factors that come into play.


ALSO, I find it funny that people keep referring to EVO as this wonderful grain free thing that will not mess with your dog's insulin levels. Potato, the carb ingredient, is little better than white rice in terms of glycemic index.

"NO GRAIN" is just a catchphrase. The carbohydrate percent is lower, but the ingredient they are using as that carbohydrate still ACTS like a grain.

What you say seems to fly in the face of a great deal of information on heavy carb content dog foods.  Sounds like some marketing info propaganda  for Purina .........Junk food is junk food....

I guess I will have to inform my dog that she is not losing weight om the Evo, she just thinks she is.....[]

Once upon a time you made the statement, and it is in the archives, that nothing but Natural Balance, I believe it was,  would ever go into your dog's pan because it was the perfect food, resulting  erfect stools, perfect coat, perfect everything.  Except it turned out to be tainted  and recalled and now appears it caused your dog to be over weight since she is losing weight on a different food.    There is no perfect food.  I learned thru the recalls that ingredients were added "without the approval " of the company --but they over see everything (yeah, right), that food was not made by the companies as claimed, that ingredients that only Amnerican grown came from China and God knows where all else.. bags of food were on the market with ingredients not listed. 
 
I don't know what your problem is with Purina, why you hate it so and always have to put it down, but it works great for my dogs, always has and with all the recalls, mine stayed on Purina One with no problems at all and I trust purina more than i would trust some of those upper end foods due to things that have come out during the recalls.
 
I am was not crazy about peanut hulls being in the SD r/d food for kayCeewhen she was on it to lose 15 or mor pounds, but it worked.  Fit and Trim got a few pounds off Honey and kept KayCee's weight off.  Now Honey is one the One weight management and keeping weight off, KayCee is on senior and keeping weight off.  Your dog may do lousy on Purina ( or Iams or Euk or SD), but mine do great.